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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The parallels between religion and committed environmentalism are quite fascinating. Both have true believers, apostates, hypocrites, gospel, received wisdom, excommunication, etc. Both are led by very human and imperfect individuals, some of whom are aware of their imperfections.
The key difference is that environmentalism is susceptible to a rational discussion of policy, based on science.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Good post, Fet.
Yeah -- people on this site think nothing of driving 800 miles to do a 6 pitch climb but complain that Al Gore is using too much electricity to construct his PowerPoint presentation.
Just imagine if we were spending $1.5 billion on renewable energy research every week instead of flushing it in Iraq. Even if we were wasting most of it, one would think we would be getting more out of it than we are doing Blood for Oil.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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i have watched the # of posts in this thread skyrocket over 2 days, but have not read the thread. still, i'm sure i can tell you who posted in it, exactly what they said, and where their information (apparently) came from.
if nothing else, this thread is an example of the current weaknesses in the way that "news" and information travels to the public, how readily and completely one bias or another infects said information along its pathway to the public, and how that modern reality more or less precludes any functional debate, either within the media itself or in the public realm.
now please resume the mutual mental masturbation...
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dirtbag
climber
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"So if I travel around espousing the virtues of not littering,
meanwhile being a litter bug myself, I am NOT a hypocrite?...
As long as my message is good, nobody should care what I do"
Bad analogy. No one in this day and age can not pollute.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Oh YES! Let's have twenty more posts of LEB vs. Crowley!
Locker, step aside!
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jstan
climber
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Pop quiz:
Really. If "Inconvenient Truth" had not gotten an Oscar, how long would this thread have been?
If you think the thread would have been much shorter, what would you conclude about us?
One thing has been demonstrated. If it was Gore's intention to increase the visibility of this issue, no one here can with a straight face, claim he has failed.
I had never heard that Bush Sr. was insincere. Recently I heard an account by a person present saying Bush Sr. called in the Joint Chiefs of Staff prior to the Gulf incident. He asked them "What is it going to take?( to free Kuwait). They told him. He thought for a second, and said "Do it." Then they did it. The officer was quite apparently not expecting such a decisive resolution in an Oval Office, or the freedom to execute that they got.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Nope, Crowley.
Show us how it's done.
edit: You better do more than just correct her godawful spelling!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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LEB: I hate to break the news to you, but all politicians are by nature good actors, some superlative (Bill Clinton). They're also good salespersons, and have resources and coaching to ensure they're as well presented as can be. Judging by appearances is often foolish and sometimes fatal.
One of the weaknesses of democracy is that the voters tend to judge (vote) based on appearances rather than reality. A politican who can present him/her self in a credible manner first - the actual policies and actions are secondary. Trusting a politician based on appearances, or public persona, is a risky thing to do. Television has worsened this problem. We may get some glimmers of the "real" person, underneath all the acting and spin - but not a lot. The truth does tend to come out over time, but elections aren't retroactive.
Many of the U.S.' great leaders would be unelectable by modern standards. Certainly Lincoln, Jefferson, and F.D. Roosevelt, possibly T. Roosevelt. They weren't pretty faces, had real positions on important issues, and weren't in it just to win.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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We are being scolded for "attacking the messenger" for wondering why AlGore refuses to walk his talk by guys like Mighty Hiker: "If you have nothing intelligent to say about the subject of debate, then attack the messenger" and Chloe: "Whatever the flaws of Al Gore, this attack-the-messenger effort is fallback position #3 for the folks who can't accept the idea of anthropogenic global change".
"Attacking the messenger" seems only to be frowned upon if that "messenger" is AlGore.
BUT, when the messenger is Tennessee Center for Policy Research, it's open season.
Especially if your name is Loom ("the cynical smear campaigns of reactionary bloggers"), Mighty Hiker ("often compromised by industry funding"), Dirtbag ("What complete horse sh#t by the same old swift boating bunch", "thes early Swift Boating shows that the right", "The Swift Boaters"), or Darnell.
Figures, those who are making excuses for AlGore's double standards are so comfortable with double standards of their own.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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"She writes better than you do."
Crowley, that's just plain MEAN.
You really know how to hurt a guy.
BUT . . . don't confuse MORE with BETTER!
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jstan
climber
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Alasdair:
I hope to hell you never get mad at me.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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FWIW, I don't believe any politicians, or more accurately believe that all contributions to public policy debates have to be examined carefully. Who's saying what, what their agenda is, whether they're trustworthy based on the record, and so on. It's just that Gore is the current whipping boy.
Even Bush is right some of the time, though perhaps less often than would be preferred. I don't agree with many of his policies, and believe he's largely a failure as president, but he's not always wrong.
I too wonder what Gore's true agenda in this is. I also find the dissonance between his lifestyle, and what he preaches, a little jarring. Neither is very relevant to his message - in fact, he could and probably will reinforce it by a "confession" such as LEB mentions are favoured by religious leaders. "I'm a sinner too. Please forgive me..."
When it comes to things like global warming, I have as much at stake as any citizen of the U.S. And Canadians use more energy per capita than almost anyone else, including the U.S. - although a lot of our consumption is simply to produce and ship energy (oil, gas, tar sands) to the U.S.
Whatever else, Cheney isn't much of a hypocrite. He doesn't gave a damn what others think of him, although he'll use any method available (often questionable) to acquire and keep power.
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dirtbag
climber
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Yeah Chaz, the source of this "story" is so reliable and objective as to be above criticism.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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"BUT, when the messenger is Tennessee Center for Policy Research, it's open season. "
Chaz, do a little research on your precious TCPR...about as unbiased as Karl Rove.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Does your bias make you wrong?
"Kalee Kreider, Gore's spokeswoman, doesn't dispute the numbers the report is based on but says the numbers need a little context."
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Bias doesn't make you wrong but distorting the truth doesn't make you right.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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In another vein, or perhaps the same vein. There's a strong element in the character of the U.S. that favours conservation, thrift, modesty, self-restraint and other worthy values. There's also great value in practicing what one preaches.
jstan is an example of this. Not only his "one tank of gas in three months" and "house not heated/cooled by artificial means". He attended the Yosemite Facelift last September, and helped for five days. A lot of people helped, some coming from as far away as Colorado and B.C. The overall environmental effect of their getting to and from the event may have more than cancelled out the work they did, though of course most combined the event with a holiday. Most of the cleanup was of post-development remnants, and other things that don't necessarily have any ongoing impact, except perhaps visual. (Everything was recycled that could be.)
jstan set a good example by travelling via public transit from Santa Barbara to Yosemite, and back, to attend. The school kids who helped were mostly bussed in. If only the rest of us were so responsible.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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TIG-
"dirtbag - All of the wind energy that is generated gets bought by somebody - all of the way less than one percent of what we need. If nobody opted for it, it would still get consumed.
So did he save carbon by using it. Nope. Because all he bought was going to get used anyway. "
TIG that is fundamentally flawed logic. In a consumer driven market when something is used 100% the market will create more supply to fulfill the demand. People who buy wind power credits are not just ensuring that the energy that is being created is being used, it ensures that there is a market specfically for wind power and that mroe wind power will be generated in the future.
If everyone in the country started buying wind energy credits then you can damn sure you'd start seeing wind farms all over the place and that large corporations would start to look into it because there was a demand for it.
Welcome home Fatty!! Couldn't agree more, except of course for your persistant pesimism. If gas gets back above $3/gallon you better bet were going to be doing some serious investment in alternative energy sources. Or if heatring oil gets bonkers. Or if California keeps having rolling blackouts. Had Reagan not gutted Carter's alternative energy initiative in 1980 we'd be living in a different world right now.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Matt wrote:
if nothing else, this thread is an example of the current weaknesses in the way that "news" and information travels to the public, how readily and completely one bias or another infects said information along its pathway to the public, and how that modern reality more or less precludes any functional debate, either within the media itself or in the public realm.
You would agree that both sides (left and right) are equally guilty of infecting info with personal bias, would you knott?
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