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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Feb 25, 2019 - 08:01am PT
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I'd guess a lot of the folks with a harsh response have a little history dealing with alcoholics; I know I've had more than my share and it definitely punches my buttons.
As my sister pointed out to me, and has been already mentioned, alcoholism is a disease. You don't cut people off because of their disease, you show them compassion. Compassion is not enabling someone's dysfunctional compulsive behavior. It is seeing the person's suffering and relating to the fact that we all have suffering in common.
It is very difficult to remain aloof/detached from someone's suffering as we are sentient beings---we relate our own sufferings. Often times we become emotional too.
It is easy to get your emotional button pushed when you really care for someone. You feel like you have been shat on after sacrificing so much to help the person.
This is the hook. Never give with any expectation that you will be rewarded---this is codependency. Give freely, openly, and w/o wanting any payback. Otherwise, you will feel like your button has been pushed, you'll feel like a sucker and lash back; and it is your own fault, not the alcoholics.
So is all the tough talk, ball cupping and helpful advice just blah blah? It may be but that's what makes us human, all our collective blah blah is a form of social interaction, albeit digital. But is it better than nothing? Not sure--- as actions speak louder than words. However, literature, for better or worse, is a reality.
The mage offered the wise man one wish. He wished for understanding.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 25, 2019 - 08:47am PT
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alcoholism is a disease
I've always had a problem digesting this concept. Calling it a disease makes it really easy to blame something other than yourself when you raise that glass to your lips. Sorry, but it sounds like a cop out. Are you suggesting that some "disease" takes over the body and the victim is unable to prevent the raising of glass to lips? I quit smoking cold turkey many times and suffered horribly from withdrawals. Each time I resumed I was fully aware that I was making a conscious choice - it wasn't some disease like cancer that I had zero control over. I was weak (ie, not fully committed) and I owned it!
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:00am PT
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HK: I quit smoking cold turkey many times . . . .
Then I guess you didn’t really quit.
I understand what you’re saying about alcoholism being a disease (or Knott). I have loved ones who are ex-alcoholics (and one still drinking now and then), and they portray both alcoholism as a disease and something they are involved in daily. (A couple of my loved ones have been recovered for 30-35 years.) I don’t see that they are blaming a disease for their problem, but I also see that their involvement with AA as almost a religion.
Just recently one asked me what spiritualism is. As you know, AA is strong on a belief in a power greater than oneself.
Yeah, I miss smoking more than I can ever say.
Be well.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:13am PT
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Alcoholism is a disease period. Look up the definition of disease.
It's not an infectious disease, or hereditary disease. But it fits the general definition of disease. Specifically it may be called a lifestyle disease.
I'm sure some alcoholics use this an excuse to pretend they don't have control over it, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's a disease.
As I've alluded to earlier different things may work for different people. Maybe some people need tough love. Some may get help from being involuntarily put in rehab for enough time. Some may just need to be left alone and figure it out themselves. some benefit greatly from AA, etc.
But for someone who is struggling with addiction, self worth and depression the last thing they probably need is derision and jokes at their expense.
You can support someone without enabling them or being suckered by them. And no one knows what it going to work best for a particular person. But again just supporting and encouraging them to get better is likely never going to hurt.
Add some things I've seen:
Leaving rehab early is likely a huge red flag. Even if you think you are good why not finish it out? If you don't have the will power to make it through rehab (and any things/people you think are stupid about it) it's going to be tough to have the will power for the addiction
Stay away from your source of addiction. Obviously there should be none in the house. You shouldn't be around friends doing it for at least a year or two.
Come up with a distraction, e.g. running. Fill your time with work, exercise, home repair, etc. until it's time to go to sleep. Don't have idle time.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:20am PT
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Wiki: Disease (pathology) An abnormal condition of a human, animal or plant that causes discomfort or dysfunction; distinct from injury insofar as the latter is usually instantaneously acquired.
Most alcoholics are functioning alcoholics, just as are most addicts of all stripes eg power, sex, climbing, $$$, status, coffee, fill in blank.
Either you have empathy or you don't. No skin off my nose. LOL.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:26am PT
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I only miss smoking when I watch “Casablanca”.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:37am PT
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Then I guess you didn’t really quit. Ha! That's a play on the famous Mark Twain quote:
"Quitting smoking is easy - I've done it hundreds of times!"
I started smoking at age 9; was up to a pack a day by age 12, and 2 packs a day by age 19. Indeed, I quit many times! ;-)
I eventually saw smoking as an unhealthy relationship. I decided to get a divorce so to speak, and abruptly ended that nearly 3-decade long relationship on Memorial Day 1998, and never looked back.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Feb 25, 2019 - 09:39am PT
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Recently decided to give up smoking AND drinking.
It's going pretty well, two months with no alcohol. Not really a problem.
Over a week with no smoking.
I don't like to think of these as diseases, just bad ways of coping with life.
The Tom Waitses and the Bukowskis tend to romanticize this behavior.
I'm hoping the norwegian boy's okay...This thread's a lot like some about old Chuck.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2019 - 10:30am PT
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Congrats Hardman and keep it up Mouse.
I have a lot of respect for those that have quit. I’ve seen how hard it can be.
It’s good to know it can be done.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 25, 2019 - 02:11pm PT
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The whole diagnose it, give it a name and a bunch of expensive medications and then poor me is for the most part a total cop out with many ailments. I bet cancer patients wish they had a choice of being sick or not.. Jeeze, all I have to do to cure my cancer is stop being an idiot and sucking on a bottle. I am certain that If I had taken the attitude of poor me I have a disease that I would still be struggling with alcohol. I treated it like a very hard climb that I really, really wanted to get up and I projected it until I got the redpoint. You have to really, really, really want it....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 25, 2019 - 03:19pm PT
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Disease, weakness, whatever.
Brandon check your mail this week.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:04pm PT
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Thinking everyone can beat alcoholism if they just try harder is also a cop out. I would guess that will power IS the number one factor in determining if someone can beat it, but there's other factors at play (including their propensity to addictions), and different things are going to work for different people. People have different physiological reactions to it. Some people can quit cold turkey, but withdrawals could lead to seizures in others.
Warren Harding was one of the toughest, most dogged people in the world. He couldn't quit even when the doctors told him it was killing him.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:25pm PT
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Alcoholism/addiction is a choice. That's why I prefer SMART Recovery over AA. There are genetics involved, but the simple fact of the matter is every time one puts the bottle to their lips, they are making a choice.
A key tenent of AA is one is powerless over their addiction. SMART posits one has power; the power of the decision to use or not.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:32pm PT
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Alcoholism/addition is a choice
What about multiplication?
I beat a serious addiction (in the process gained 36 pounds I have since lost).
Took some serious willpower.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:33pm PT
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What about multiplication?
Fixed the typo.....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:35pm PT
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Toker, you gave up choss? Just say no!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:36pm PT
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No, I'm still a sandstone climber.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2019 - 04:49pm PT
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Alcoholism/addiction is a choice. That's why I prefer SMART Recovery over AA. There are genetics involved, but the simple fact of the matter is every time one puts the bottle to their lips, they are making a choice.
A key tenent of AA is one is powerless over their addiction. SMART posits one has power; the power of the decision to use or not.
Maybe it's a choice but it can be a tough one. As mentioned up thread people have been given the choice between continuing their addiction and dying, or stopping and living. No one wants to continue down a path that leads to death, and it shows how hard it can be to make another choice.
I'm sure I'd be in the same camp of believing I have control and that would be the way I'd beat it. But I know other people are different and if AA/greater power works for other people I say whatever works for you is right.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 25, 2019 - 05:02pm PT
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How much control do you have after drugs/alcohol take over your life? I don't know. And again I'm sure it varies per the person.
Consider heroin. To me the dumbest thing is to even try it the first time. There's so many stories of rock stars, etc dying from it. It's known that it's extremely mentally and physically addictive. Why anyone would think "I can handle it, I'll be fine" is beyond me. But then they are addicted and it's extremely tough to stop. You need more and more. You need it just to feel normal / not depressed and despondent. It makes you feel content and that things will be okay. Sheesh, what an awful drug tailor made for abuse and addiction. I have more sympathy for the person who has become addicted because it has messed with their mind so much, I don't know how much control they have left. But that initial decision to try it just seems stupid.
Alcohol isn't really like that. So many people drink and can handle it. You just start like everyone else does. How much control does someone have after their chemistry and brain structure has changed from years of abuse. Again I don't know. But I'm not about to think it would be as easy for them to pass up a drink as for me.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Feb 25, 2019 - 05:07pm PT
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I'm sure I'd be in the same camp of believing I have control and that would be the way I'd beat it. But I know other people are different and if AA/greater power works for other people I say whatever work for you is right.
Absolutely! Whatever works for one is good. I'm not putting down AA, it just didn't work for me.
The reason it didn't work for me is listening to other's sob stories ad naseum was pointless for me. I've lived it. That and it seemed like a lot of folks came to AA meetings after having a few. AA meetings made me want to get a drink. I'm not alone in that.
So many people drink and can handle it.
That's where the genetics come in and why it is called a disease.
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