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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Nov 25, 2014 - 09:05am PT
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Like a lot of folks here I find this whole W.O.S. saga very
interesting . I think the movie was well done and answered
many questions. It seems that they not only were "qualified"
to do this route but were " uniquely qualified " to get it
done. It may not be everyone's cup of tea but they put up
a very hard route that not many seem to have sack enough to
repeat. They certainly have my respect. I do not know Mr.
Grossman but to me he did come off poorly in the film . Why
didn't someone go up and have a look ? That is the obvious
question that comes up in my mind. People will see what they
want to see but , this is climbing the wall is right there
in front of them, go have a look see.
If this route had been put up by Bridwell where would it stand ?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 09:33am PT
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Thanks for taking the time to write all that Richard.
Some of that I never knew happened.
I know the biggest fear they said was; "They're going to drill a bolt ladder up the "King Slab" lol.
But you have to admit .... there's a hell of a lot of holes drilled to capture that region ......
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:29am PT
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Dingus, if you go through the posts that Jensen made when he was preparing for the SA, he was skeptical of the grade but also (and importantly) was excited about the possibility of climbing something that would be at the limit of possibility (similar statements of feelings were made when he did intifada)
From the posting at the time, and before the actual climb soured him to it, there seemed to be less of a chip on his shoulder than a desire to get out and see a route that was "the hardest."
Edit: Agreed Dingus! Cheers!
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John M
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:31am PT
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Thanks for your response Richard. I'm not quite sure how to answer you. It sounds very much like you were wronged. I have thought that since your story first started being told on supertopo. I am though, not sure of the notion that there are no elders. Elders, as in some societies such as the native American indians did not necessarily have blanket authority to decide everything. A warrior could choose if he wanted to follow the chief or not. Of course he could also be kicked out on his ass if he didn't. But it was always a power struggle. And the elder could have been wrong and could have mishandled it, but that doesn't mean that person isn't an elder. An elder isn't always the better person. Its often simply the person that the most people pay attention to. They don't even have to agree with everything the elder says, they just have to follow them most of the time for the person to hold the position. Which means that in your case, the tribe could be acting out against the wishes of the elders. And there isn't a lot that the elder can do.
My "take" at that time was that John Dill and Mike Durr were not "actively encouraging" any harassment of us. But they also both repeatedly made it clear that they sided with those SAR members that were affronted. They kept urging us that the root of the problem was us, not the affronted SAR guys. They kept telling us that the problem was ours to resolve, and they had various suggestions of how WE should solve it. So there definitely was a very passive aggression on their part, and the lines were quite clearly drawn.
I simply wonder what would have happened if you had swallowed your pride, backed off the climb and gone and followed one of their suggestions to climb something else to prove your chops. Because from my point of view, even if the first two pitches were done perfectly, and show exquisite skill. Its still only two pitches. A lot happens to a person when they get a couple thousand feet off the ground. That has been shown many times. Some people manage to keep it together, others don't. And some start bending the rules. Obviously now we all know that you can keep it together, and put up a stout route without bending the rules. But was that known back then? It doesn't appear that way to me.
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John M
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:39am PT
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LOL.. yeah.. you are probably right.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:40am PT
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As j-tree says a lot of guys want to try the hardest climbs at times to actually verify the claims
and to test their skills against that claim.
Try not to jump so hard to the conclusions of Richard and Mark as you may easily fall victim to the very
same mistake these so called "Valley locals" had made.
The photo documentation that Richard and Mark made on that desert climb was awesome and so interesting.
More so than the many words can usually convey.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:43am PT
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Regarding not changing anything, Mark is referring to our behaviors. He is referring to the idea that we supposedly "should" have "proved ourselves" to the "Valley locals" prior to assuming that we had any "right" to try the route. He is referring to the idea that we "should" have "initiated dialog" in some way. What would that even have looked like???
Here we go.... We walk into Camp 4 and start asking, "We're new here, and we'd like to find some 'locals' to talk to about a new route we're planning to do on El Cap. Can anybody direct us to some 'locals,' because we want to pay some dues before we imagine that we're 'worthy' to get started?"
This is hilarious, it's called being friendly when showing up in a new place. You don't need to spray & cup balls, just don't be an antisocial weirdo, show a little respect to earn a little respect.
Did you guys try that or did you think it was up to all the people there to roll out the carpet?
In the film you guys say it was your intention to avoid everyone.
You could have prevented the whole thing by showing up with a case of beer & being friendly instead of being antisocial from the planning stage.
Planning to be antisocial doesn't leave a lot of potential to make friends now does it?
The fact that 30 yrs later you don't realize that and can't properly answer Ken M's question blows my mind.
You could have probably even grabbed the beer after the first issue you had with the locals & all would have been good with a few around a fire and some stories.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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There's nowhere in any "book" you need to talk to any "locals" to do a first ascent on El Cap.
You can come into Yosemite Valley and tell any local at any time to "Fuk off" at anytime you so wish.
Charlie Porter did it to Bridwell right to his face ......
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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Well maybe they should have told somebody to fuk off then Werner.
They should have done something different.
I didn't say they should have asked to put up an FA.
When considering Ken M's question I was trying to say that they should have, or could have used a different approach socially towards the other people there, based on how they described it in the movie.
Hindsight is usually 20/20, but in this case the fact that the FAists of WOS still think they could have done nothing different, nothing at all to avoid or change the situation that occured shows massive blinders.
It's the whole reason this story drags on.
You guys had beers back then right?
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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It really blows me away that supposedly grown men get so butt hurt because someone didn't come over and say "hi there" and acknowledge them. Just reeks of that whole "local surf spot get the f*#k out here mentality". From my understanding Mark and Richard were looked at as goody two shoes Jesus Freaks anyways. Anyone here seriously think they would have even been accepted even if they would have walked over and said Hi? And what the hell is wrong with being a good host and saying Hi first, were the valley locals that had an issue with Mark and Richard too good for that? How much ego do you have to have to believe other human beings owe you something just because you are you? As Kaulk mentioned in the film. This is more about the human condition than anything else.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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You could have probably even grabbed the beer after the first issue you had with the locals & all would have been good with a few around a fire and some stories.
Jensen and Smith don't (or at least didn't) drink.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:43am PT
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They should have done something different.
Okay, okay, I give. We SHOULD have done something different. Some vague, I don't know... social... something. We SHOULD have known who the "problem people" were going to be and, well, done... something... social... about it in advance.
You SAY that hindsight is 20/20, so, yes, if you're really holding to that, then, yes, we SHOULD have gone up to Corbett as soon as we got in to the Valley and said, "Dude, we're about to get into a deep and serious problem that's going to span decades and really spin all out of control. Or, we could just sit down now and have a beer and talk it all out in advance."
You see? The problem with counterfactual, subjunctive scenarios is that you can't "manufacture" the scope, limitations, and metrics of what that "20/20" is supposed to include. It's all easy to talk about now and interpret snippets of statements as you wish. But the real-time reality reveals the deeper epistemic holes that we all live in.
My point is that the question, "Would have done anything differently?" is malformed. Knowing what we know now, somehow manufacturing a "perfect" and "hindsight" scenario, yes, certainly, you can dream up this or that scenario in which we would do this or that thing differently. But there IS no such reality, so we respond as we do because there IS no such reality, and we're not going to spend our time responding to an infinite number of scenarios! "What if Corbett was wearing a pink miniskirt. What would you have done differently then?" "What if there was no such thing as beer. What would you have done then?" "What if the 'locals' actually cared about truth-seeking instead of forming decades-long opinions in the face of the evidence. What would you have done then?"
You forget that I had climbed in the Valley for YEARS before WoS. I knew quite a few people back then... apparently not the "right" people. But I was FAR from "anti-social."
When we say "kept our heads down," we are not saying "anti-social." We are saying that we didn't swing a big dick and call attention to ourselves, like, "Look! Look! Bad-ass non-locals here to make a big statement on the big stone!!!"
When we say, "avoid trouble," we are not saying, "skulk about in the shadows and avoid talking to anybody." We are saying that we didn't swing a big dick and.... Well, a reasonable person gets the point.
This "20/20" BS is just that. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Grossman RIGHT NOW makes the point that there was nothing we were going to do differently to present the FACTS differently to have made any substantive change in outcome.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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This is more about the human condition than anything else.
And there it is!
Look, I came on to respond to Grossman (yet again). Then so much turns into yet more drive-by shootings, pot shots, questions of "ego" and "motivation" and on and on. I have no stomach for it.
Questions are asked, and I try to answer forthrightly. I can't rise to the challenge of the Meaty's and Dingus's and so on. It's just so tiresome.
Werner, I appreciate your comments very much. Thank you. Others have been thoughtful as well. J-tree for one has a clue and articulates it really well. Jingy has been penetrating and downright hilarious. The whole "I'm nobody" bit has had me almost snorting out my nose.
But I'm not going to "explain" or "defend" my "motivations" on ascents like Intifada and Weak Sauce (well, on any actually) at this point. I did not do those routes TO tear anybody down. I simply reported on what I found. I know my own motivations, always have, and I'll look anybody in the eye (face to face) about WHO I am. These online pot-shot wars, when that's what they become, are a waste of time.
I'm outy.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Nov 25, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
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I was just addressing the question asked in the film, & again by Ken M.
Which was what could you have done different?
To which the original answer was: nothing
Not condoning the treatment incurred.
Madbolter1 actually does a good job explaining the circumstance a little better in his last post, much better than in the film. Thanks for the response.
I still did not say u guys should have whipped your dicks out when u showed up and said hi to everyone. Just that showing up with the intention to keep to yourselves may have helped to create the perfect storm for this whole sh#t show to take place.
I never have read the other thread or been interested in this story much, but did watch the film the other day & my opinions of the whole story have been based on the interviews of you guys and the words you used.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
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IMO: did Richard and Mark do anything wrong by not "coming to prey at the Camp 4 alter of balls " (LOL great line) NO!
Could they have made things easier on themselves by climbing an El Cap test piece first, probably yes.
So Richard, Mark S. Hold on to the Night, the Valley Will be Right Here Waiting for You.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Nov 25, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
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Ummm, ever notice how there's like hardly any chicks on this thread?
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Nov 25, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
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pc
climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
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I love this thread. Just when you thought WoS had run its course....
Great procrastination snackage...
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Nov 25, 2014 - 04:27pm PT
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When posting this video clip I certainly never expected to start this type of discussion.
Get real. Whispering "Wings of Steel" on ST is like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, guaranteed to get a reaction.
One day my wife and I were climbing Moby Dick. Some guy came down the trail and asked if we had seen anyone go by recently. Apparently he had been working on some aid route and someone had taken a dump on his ropes.
The rest, as they say, is history.
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