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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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'America founded on Judeo Christian principles' is a meme that gets parroted alot, but it comes with two fatal flaws:
1) America's only real unique quality as a new nation was that it was secular.
2) The principles underlying America's Bill of Rights find their earliest historical origins in Natural Law, as posited by Plato and the Stoics, ideas which were subsequently popularized by the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, and spread centuries later by Thomas Aquinas. It seems that early Christians borrowed some of these principles. They certainly didn't invent them.
Nor do many modern Christian sects adhere to them. Take the idea of equality under the law, for example.
The fundamentalist version of Christianity is, on its face, at odds with idea of equality. The world is divided into Saved and Damned. Bigotry has always found a good home, here - it is the core of Christian doctrine.
And therein lies the rub. History is fun and interesting, but what really matters is the actions people take today. From marital equality to a woman's right to make her own reproductive choices and evolution, Christianity is the largest organized movement that seeks to maintain a divided, bigoted, ignorant, and punitive America.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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A more rational claim is we were the first modern nation founded on the principle that the state must not respect any religion. But let's not bother with the facts. They're often so inconvenient.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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and anyway what's this dissing America?
america without the capital A?
Even I have more respect.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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John E treats people on this forum -- whatever their views on climbing, religion, or politics -- with respect.
Wholeheartedly agree. And I appreciate that he actually has some professional background behind many of his positions.
It is not the case that everybody's opinion is as good as everybody else's. I'll take an opinion like John's more seriously than many.
At the other end of the spectrum is bookie....
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Wut kind of climbing shoes did the founders have?
Jus wonderin is all....
Not many clear pictures, although I think I can see Donini in this one. Standards sure rose once Bachar came back from Spain with some Fires.
They clearly cut corners, see how few stars they have on the flag. Couldn't pay to have more sewn on I suspect....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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The fundamentalist version of Christianity is, on its face, at odds with idea of equality. The world is divided into Saved and Damned. Bigotry has always found a good home, here - it is the core of Christian doctrine.
I was right with you until the above-quoted passage. I certainly do understand the ire that motivates such a perspective, but I think a more nuanced perspective is a more accurate one.
I agree that many Christians are bigoted, narrow (and closed) minded, and vociferous in their unsubstantiated superiority!
However, that said, the sort of division you describe, of saved and damned, is one that genuine Christianity (not many/most Christians) leaves to God! A genuine Christian would say something like, we are all equal in our need of salvation, and there is NO superiority to be found among humans. Thus, genuine Christians should be the most open-minded, carefully-reasoned, thoughtful, non-judgmental, and non-bigoted individuals on Earth. Christ said, "He who has been forgiven much loves much." Sadly, what I see in most of mainstream Christianity is ONLY bumper-stickers about having been forgiven--precious little actual sense of their having been forgiven much and the corresponding love.
So, I'm distinguishing between the actual principles of (even fundamentalist) Christianity and that twisted, distorted version practiced by FAR too many supposed Christians. Even fundamentalism holds as a fundamental principle that all people are equal and that Christ died to save ALL people. No bigotry nor sense of superiority there!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Ok Lynne, since Dean isn't around, what do you think of Georges quote?
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
― George Washington
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John M
climber
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TVash..
Bigotry has always found a good home, here - it is the core of Christian doctrine.
It can find a good home in the christian religion because christianity is made up of humans, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus' teaching were bigoted. He taught tolerance and he taught people to love their enemy. Not that that is necessarily commonly practiced among Christians. You have to separate out what Jesus taught, from his followers. Bigotry is not a core Christian doctrine.
Are the pagans on this forum who constantly deride people for their beliefs in God bigots?
Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust or hatred on the basis of a person's ethnicity, evaluative orientation, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.
So then would you say that bigotry has found a good home among pagans?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Leaving bigotry "in God's hands" is, of course, a classic "my hands are tied" dodge. There can be no shunting of responsibility for one's actions to the divine or anywhere else.
One chooses one's beliefs and actions. Anyone who acts in a bigoted fashion, regardless of justification, is, by definition, choosing to be a bigot.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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I won't get wrapped around the axle about Jesus because there is scant historical evidence that he existed at all. As the New Testament was written decades after his death by persons unknown - believe whatever you like, really.
Having said that, the scriptural version of Jesus was, in fact, bigoted towards foreigners, as one would expect for a person of his time:
Matthew 15:21-28
The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 **He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”**
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
He relented in the end, so there's that.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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A treaty of peace and friendship between the United States and Tripoli that was approved by George Washington explicitly stated: “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion…”
This treaty was negotiated by the American diplomat Joel Barlow during the administration of George Washington. Washington read it and approved it, although it was not ratified by the senate until John Adams had become president.
Finally, and most obviously, if the founding fathers intended to include Jesus, the Bible, or other particular aspects of the Christian faith in the founding of our nation, they would have expressly done so. However, the two references to religion that are in the Constitution contain exclusionary language. The First Amendment says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . .” and in Article VI, Section III, “… no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”
The founding fathers’ purposes were clear. They had no intention to found the country according to Christian doctrines. http://hipstermonk.com/religious-wisdom-of-americas-founding-fathers/
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John M
climber
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Leaving bigotry "in God's hands" is, of course, a classic "my hands are tied" dodge.
who said one word about leaving it in God's hands? I certainly didn't. My point was that bigotry is found in every area of life because its found in humans. Since humans make up christianity, then of course christianity harbors bigotry. But then so does pagansim and thus your classifying it as a christian is false. It is not a christian doctrine anymore then it is a pagan doctrine.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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One chooses one's beliefs and actions. Anyone who acts in a bigoted fashion, regardless of justification, is, by definition, choosing to be a bigot.
Entirely agreed!
But my point is that there is nothing uniquely or fundamentally Christian about bigotry. My other point is that genuine Christianity fundamentally disavows bigotry.
The fact that individual Christians are such in name only, as they have not had the love of Christ transform their hearts (which will remove every trace of bigotry), only speaks to their individual choices rather than to Christianity itself.
I might add that genuine Christians should be the first to recognize that the United States is NO theocracy and that, therefore, cannot be molded into the image of, say, the ancient Israelite nation! So, we're gonna have all SORTS of "immoral" things going on that are LEGAL and that SHOULD be legal!
Personally, I believe that the greatness of the USA cannot be measured by its "righteousness," but its freedom. God wants people to freely recognize Him or freely reject Him. Coercion is the antithesis of genuine Christianity, and Christians should be the first to recognize this principle!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I won't get wrapped around the axle about Jesus because there is scant historical evidence that he existed at all. As the New Testament was written decades after his death by persons unknown - believe whatever you like, really.
My only response to this is that I don't want to engage in this sort of thread-drift. But I don't believe that this perspective is sustainable. That's all I'll say here, just so that I'm not "implicitly agreeing" by just letting it slide.
Now, back to the topic at hand....
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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2014 years and still waiting. Patience is a virtue. But yeah he'll show up.
It's like that guy a gave $40 to to go get me a bag of weed. Still waiting...
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John M
climber
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"equally worthless"
there is a huge difference between.. everyone has sinned, and everyone is worthless..
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I'd say there is a loose connection between the philosophical foundations of Christianity and those of United States, but the link is not strong enough to claim that "We are Christian nation."
Well said, imho.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Great troll btw Jim.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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http://www.nationalturk.com/en/1500-year-old-syriac-bible-found-in-ankara-turkey-16624
1500 year-old ‘ Syriac ‘ Bible found in Ankara, Turkey : Vatican in shock !
Ancient Bible in Aramaic dialected Syriac rediscovered in Turkey
The relic was ‘rediscovered’ in the depositum of Ankaran Justice Palace, the ancient version of bible is believed to be written in Syriac, a dialect of the native language of Jesus.
Ankara / Turkey – The bible was already in custody of Turkish authorities after having been seized in 2000 in an operation in Mediterranean area in Turkey. The gang of smugglers had been charged with smuggling antiquities, illegal excavations and the possession of explosives and went to trial. Turkish police testified in a court hearing they believe the manuscript in the bible could be about 1500 to 2000 years old.After waiting eight years in Ankara the ancient bible is being transferred to the Ankaran Ethnography Museum with a police escort.
Ancient Bible will be shown in Ankaran Ethnography Museum
The bible, whose copies are valued around 3-4 Mil. Dollars had been transferred to Ankara for safety reasons, since no owners of the ancient relic could be found.
The manuscript carries excerpts of the Bible written in gold lettering on leather and loosely strung together, with lines of Syriac script with Aramaic dialect. Turkish authorities express the bible is a cultural asset and should be protected for being worthy of a museum.
Ancient Bible in Aramaic dialected Syriac rediscovered in Turkey
Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic – the native language of Jesus – once spoken across much of the Middle East and Central Asia. It is used wherever there are Syrian Christians and still survives in the Syrian Orthodox Church in India and a village in the vicinity of Syrian capital Damascus. Aramaic is also still used in religious rituals of Maronite Christians in Cyprus.
Experts were however divided over the provenance of the manuscript, and whether it was an original, which would render it priceless, or a fake. Other questions surround the discovery of the ancient bible, whether the smugglers had had other copies of the relic or had smuggled them from Turkey.
Vatican eyes the faith of the ancient relic
The Vatican reportedly placed an official request to examine the scripture, which was written on pages made of animal hide in the Aramaic language using the Syriac alphabet.
The copy of the ancient Bible is valued as high as 40 million Turkish Liras ( 28 Mil. Dollars)
Apparently the Gospel of Barnabas claims Jesus wasn't crucified but ascended directly to heaven and that it was Judas who was actually crucified in his place.
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