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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jul 12, 2006 - 07:45pm PT
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what you know about the world and the people in it would be a thimble full in the waters of karl's pool of such knowledge and understanding. i have barely read your posts if at all, and yet i know exactly what they all say. you are like plain vanilla yogurt in a throw away plastic cup, no toppings or sprinkles, entirely predictable, and somewhat dull.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 12, 2006 - 08:16pm PT
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Fattrad,
"The author of the above article has eloquently stated the true beliefs of the neo-cons as related to the Islamic world."
In the spirit of civility, not calling you names and all, I read the article and there are some real valid points.
I guess the main issue I have with your angle on things is how to get to a point where the majority of us can all just get along, with a complete fist, or with an open hand followed by a very-very firm handshake.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 12, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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Fattrad,
I see your point regarding Israel and Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc...
On the flip side, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. are probably thinking the same thing of Israel.
Why do you see it necessary for the US to get involved in this conflict?
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jul 12, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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hey mrs. genius- i am not interested in a perpetual tit for tat w/ you. your attempts to one-up me are strikingly schoolyard in nature (quite ironic in the light of you calling everyone who opposes you 'childish').
just so you can never say i have never done anything nice for you, here's a little help w/ some basic reading comprehension:
"lois- i don't argue with you, so your post goes almost unread (like all those books...)."
while it's true that no one needs to read your posts to know what they say, the word in question above is 'post', that is singular, not plural, an error of distinction that changes the comment from refering to a specific post (which is what i did), to being a generalization about your posts overall (which is how you took it). furthermore, the verb 'goes' is congugated to match the single 'post' (as opposed to 'posts go'), a subtle clue that typically assists the reader to undestand the various words in a particular context.
are we all following along here?
so yes, i read your posts about feeding coyotes by hand, and no, that does not conflict w/ anything i have ever said. in fact, it also served to support my previously held notions that you are more or less an idiot in real life and have no street-smarts whatsoever. have you considered raw bacon? i'll bet they will like that. go ahead- what's the worst thing that could happen?
dipsh#t...
cheers, and you're welcome for the basic lesson in your native tongue.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jul 12, 2006 - 09:01pm PT
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that's a rich comment by fat judys evil twin sister!
so we should support israel because we are collectively anti-arab and pro-jesus? oh hey wait- you wouldn't be jewish yerself, would ya? hey, just like a bunch of those PNAC types, and the APIAC lobbyists who were so influential in the gW I administrations downhill push for war... hmmm...
oh, and the islamic terrorists are israels enemies too!?
never mind that you are on the wrong side of the chicken and the egg question there (i.e. you can trace much of the arab world's support for anti-american terrorism to our blind and unquestionable support for israeli policy, regardless of their actions and their relative morality or justification).
and OIL?
you mean there is oil in israel?
well then what the hell qre we doing in iraq/n?
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jul 12, 2006 - 09:09pm PT
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leb,
do you read anything you write?
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jul 12, 2006 - 09:41pm PT
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just check'n.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 13, 2006 - 01:52am PT
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Matt: I might be quilty of some coveting but I lack the opportunity to sin worse.
Regarding that article, let's just take this line:
"Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives, as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements."
You know who the worst appeasers in WW2 were? THE GERMAN PEOPLE. Hitler didn't rise up all by himself. He was believed, supported and and excused by people just like Lois, who thinks it's being loyal to the country to defend the leader who's destroying it.
Let's pretend Lois was a 40 year old German lady as Hitler was rising to power:
"Germany is in dangerous times. The communists who burned our parliment building mean to kill us and Hitler is protecting us from them. I have to believe he knows more about what's going on here than I do. As a German I have to support my leader.
I know Hitler knows something about those Jews too. I've read in the party newspaper what dirty things they do. Why do they have to wear all black and those funny hats and scarves? They aren't really willing to become Germans! Hitler put them on trains and is sending them to somewhere that they can be together with just their own people.
I don't understand why we attacked the Checks and Poland but I know Hitler has good reasons. He has a lot of smart people who study things and have inside intelligence. Those countries haven't always gone with Germany anyway. They'll benefit from the strong leadership of Hitler."
Lois, you don't know much about loyalty. I have lots of right wing friends, many of whom I climb with, but I'm not making friends by talking politics on supertopo. I have to stand up and be obnoxious talking politics because I think our country is really in danger from it's leaders. I never did these before Bush.
It hurts for a non-confrontational California nature boy to stand up and put it in people's faces. I do it for us, the people, the Americans, many of whom work too hard and long to get the details that unmask the veneer of lies and disinformation that we've been subjected to.
I think there are a few very powerful criminals high in the government and, to avoid the truth ever coming out about them, may be willing to aggressively usurp power. They need it to be passed to complaint successors devoted to the same general service of entrenched power and money. It could be Democrat or Republican. They serve similar masters.
I don't have much "troll" in me, but I admit to mixed feelings.
On one hand, I'm sad to have bagged on Lois so much, she really can't help it and has many virtues outside of her political thinking.
On the other hand, she wants to strangle me now....mmmm..sweet
Hey, I've went to Kashmir in 1986 (with my Mom!). Even then some Muslims were promising that we would see a war there someday. When India and Pakistan were partitioned, Kashmir was a princely state that wound up with India despite the Muslim/Hindu Majority principle that governed the rest of the partition.
India has a Hindu majority but also hundreds of millions of muslims, mostly mellow folk. Both sides have religious nationalists, but religion is freely practiced and respected by Hindu and Muslim alike.
But it's sad that Kashmir, a very, very beautiful place that could do great if it were peaceful enough to visit, is instead a boiling cauldren of hate.
But then, here's one for you. The Kashmiri rebels are pretty much supported by the Pakistani ISI (spys) The Pak government wants to "not find" these Kashmiri rebels way more than they'd like to avoid finding Bin Laden. Bush is busy supporting and Arming the Pakistanis, even though they support terrorists like the group likely behind this recent bombing, they were the allies of the Taliban before the war, and who have the Islamic Bomb and who exported that nuclear technology to places like Iran and Libya.
Our support for Pakistan covers a lot of terrorist bases.
Peace
Karl
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 13, 2006 - 09:15am PT
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No Climbing In Yosemite!!!! (Not that I have for over ten years)
Damn Fattrad, maybe I will come over to your side if you can promise me that I can climb in Yosemite, that is, if you can promise me that the neo-cons, the majority who seem to hate nature (not you sushi man) and the wilderness, will not destroy the place in their quest for money, greed and power.
Good points Karl, as usual. And I know from your posts that you (appear) to be open-minded and are not anti-American. Your points of Americans turning a blind eye to what the present administration and their cronies are up to are spot on.
There are a number or quotes over the years by prominent and loyal Americans that could be posted showing that indeed “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel” (okay so it was an Englishman who said that particular phrase and not an American).
That quote by Dr Samuel Johnson no doubt refers to leaders/demagogues who appeal to the loyalty of one’s own country by saying and doing anything to gain support for their agenda and gain political power. By doing so, anybody who disagrees with them are portrayed as being hostile to the interests of the country and hence are unpatriotic (un-American, anti-American). As noted elsewhere, honest disagreement becomes character assassination, and underneath the appeal is the exploitation of bigoted or prejudiced feelings of the masses.
But maybe Johnson was wrong. After all, he also said that “A man who tires of London, tires of life” but that was in the 1700s century when there was little else to compare with London. For me, almost seven years there was enough, so while I am tired of London I am definitely not tired of life. Sorry Dr Sam, you were wrong on that observation.
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bleedr
climber
robber's roost
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Jul 13, 2006 - 10:29am PT
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patrick,
route 31 is eagle's way.
anyway, back to the political ping pong game...
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 13, 2006 - 10:59am PT
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Good morning Fattrad,
1) Like minded nations should support each other (ie: NATO)
Israel is not part of NATO. Nor should it be. Obviously I disagree with you on the like-minded comment.
Unless you are strictly talking about the leadership of the two nations, not the general population.
2) Some of Israels enemies have bigger goals (Spain, Bosnia, etc)
And Israel does not?
3) Some of Israels enemies would even dream of an Islamic World (No climbing in Yosemite)
Fear mongering.....
4) I'll say it, OIL.
Ah! Pretty cool that the US is dong next to nothing to ween us from fossil fuels.
#5 Some of Israels enemies dream of killing off half of San Francisco's population (the gay half). I think gay people should have lot's of rights, Osama and Islamic clerics feel very differently.
Seems some Israelis would do the same thing....
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885916950&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885964912&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
After going over your rhetoric and comments in this thread I'd have to say YOU are the most UN-AMERICAN person on this list.
Unbridled support for Israel and a war that can not be won by the US, along with no form of truly constructive input on how to deal with the situation.
That is the way I see it.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 13, 2006 - 01:47pm PT
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Thanks Bleedr, don't know why I couldn't find it at first. sounds like the rock over past Zodiac to the East Buttress isn't of the best quality, though if memory serves me well, the East Buttress has quality rock.
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bleedr
climber
robber's roost
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Jul 13, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
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your welcome patrick. i've not done any routes over that way ('cept the east butt), but i've had some friends tell me the routes over there are very worthy for the hard aid enthusiast. ivo told me he thought pressure cooker was the best nailing route he'd done on the captain. ammon has said similar things, i believe.
CLIMBING TOPIC HIJACK LIKE WHOA
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 13, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
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Jeff,
Uninformed I'm not.
But I choose to opt out of these discussions anymore.
Religious, sectarian, regional, it's all war and things will get ugly soon. Just hope you are secure in your beliefs, Jeff, you may find yourself in a country one morning where your ideology will be considered a "threat" to the common American.
Hope you got a good pair of running shoes if that happens.
Peace out.
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