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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 26, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
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What's important is that you can SEE under those lights.
Too bad you have to work tomorrow Lynne. See ya when you can escape.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Nov 26, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
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Well, TGT, at first I totally agreed with you....then I thought well maybe it's better NOT to be able to see EVERYthing under the lights....if yo get my drift, and again lol. (Love ST cause of the humor and fun!)
Thanks for the kind thoughts @ climbing it's nice to know the rock friends are out there. Give Phyllis a hug for me. How's the Obama winter garden???
Cheers, lynnie
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 26, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
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I'm gonna have tons of Shallots this spring. I kinda over did it last winter so I'm limiting what I'm planting otherwise this time.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 26, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
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Really, who cares about the particulars.
I do.. We use a lot of energy in this world and We waste a lot of it. Even power lines waste energy. The more we waste, the more likely we will have to burn more coal to make everything work. Which means tearing up more land to get the coal and putting more pollutants into the air. So yes.. I care. But I also don't like CFLs and I haven't found any LED lights that I like. I have a CFL, but I don't really like it. Yes, only one. I only have 6 lights in my entire house.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
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the future for LED!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
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Once the electrical power reaches my home every single watt is converted in the end, with 100% efficiency, into heat.
It doesn't matter if it spends a brief moment as light illuminating the room or not.
I, like most other people out there, am quite capable of making those choices carefully. If you think politicians make better choices with your money than you can yourself, well, your ideology has arrived.
Finally someone making sense here
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
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Crock,
What a bunch of Crock!
We are talking useful/useable energy vs. waste heat energy (WHE) that is unuseable as it leaks back to the Universe. You can do better.
And I'm pretty sure your utility bill disagrees with you also. If it could talk and it cared for you and the money that you have to spend to pay for it, it would grab you by the shirt collar and say "Wise-up. Go LED and save some money and conserve useable energy. I'm here to help you. Listen."
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
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Heat in the summer in places that are hot doesn't make a lot of sense. I know you know this.
I, like most other people out there, am quite capable of making those choices carefully. If you think politicians make better choices with your money than you can yourself, well, your ideology has arrived.
Why do people say this? As though it is all black and white.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:49pm PT
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http://www.livescience.com/7060-light-bulb.html
Nice article by Theodore Gray. He's awesome. I got his big book on The Periodic Table. Great book. I like the way he thinks. He goes for it.
He collects all the elements of the periodic table and makes 3D periodic table displays for them. I'm in the process of doing that myself. Some elements are hard to come by and even difficult to own. He's got some great stories to tell on how he acquired some of them ;-))
Crock,
You know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not arguing the Law of Conservation of Energy, the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics.
I'm arguing the fact that you have to pay for the KWhs you use, unless you are off the grid. I'm pretty sure you care about money and would like to save some. Even the rich elite 1% like to do that.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
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What's to debate? On one side there are actual users who are getting gouged and then are upset because they are looking like alien autopsy victims bathed in the unflattering Chinese light... Then on the other side are salesmen, artists, and wire pullers with an agenda.
I just want a good American made bulb that I am free to choose and is not mandated by the Govt. Is that so wrong or hard?
LOL! (Cue Jockitch rant) You might have to move to a "free state"... you live in California don't ya Russ? :-) I think you should be able to buy any bulb you want. Competition is good. When LEDs get good enough, we'll all buy them all day long. And it will be good for everyone and everything. Ya have to love this kind of progress, the lights will get better and you can vote with your dollars.
LED Menorah, wave of the future.
BTW, lots of electricians on the thread, climbing content alert: this is what a hard working electrician looks like. Adam Winslow, formerly of Colo, then Ore, now Calif. If you want arms with veins like these you could do worse than being an electrician.
and for no particular reason here's Brutus' old disclaimer he'd send with his topos:
"WARNING!!
ALL INDIVIDUALS USING, REFERRING TO, TALKING ABOUT, OR THINKING ABOUT THIS TOPO MUST READ THIS!!!
This inaccurate topo is based on dim recollections, half-baked guesses, and outright lies. In NO WAY does it tell the full story. You would probably be better off just trying to find your own way up the mounatin, than you would be if you used this topo. But that statement in no way implies that I am in any way responsible if you don't use the topo, and something bad happens anyway.
Nature is unpredictable and unsafe. Mountains are dangerous. Many books have been written about these dangers, and there's no way I can list them all here. Read the books.
The area depicted by this topo is covered in steep terrain with loose, slippery and unstable footing. The weather can make matters worse. Sheer drops are everywhere. You may fall, be injured or die. There are hidden holes. You could break your leg. There are wild animals, which may be vicious, poisonous, hungry or carriers of dread diseases. These may include poisonous amphibians, reptiles, and insects; insects to which you have allergies, or whose multiple stings can cause anaphylactic shock; mammals which may include skunks, badgers, marmots, lions, tigers, and bears; predatory birds, and all other manner of beasts. Plants can be poisonous as well, and even when not poisonous, can inflict serious injury like a sharp stick in the eye. This topo, and the author of this topo, will not do anything to protect you from any of this. I do not inspect, supervise or maintain the ground, rocks, cliffs, wildlife, vegetation or other features, natural or otherwise.
Real dangers are present even on approach trails. Trails are not sidewalks, and folks have died and been seriously injured even on sidewalks when they have tripped on cracked concrete, plunged into meter boxes with missing covers, been mugged, hit by cars, had pianos fall on them... Trails can be, and are, steep, slippery and dangerous. Trail features made or enhanced by humans, such as bridges, steps, walls and railings (if any) can break, collapse, or otherwise fail catastrophically at any time. I don't promise to inspect, supervise or maintain them in any way. They may be negligently constructed or repaired. Some trails in the area are only maintained by Nelson Bighorn Sheep, who have little regard for human life or human safety, or any humans whatsoever. In summary, trails are unsafe, period. Live with it or stay away.
Stay on the trails whenever possible. The terrain, in addition to being dangerous, is surprisingly complex. You may get lost. You probably WILL get lost. The chances of getting lost multiply geometrically after the sun goes down, due to poor visibility. The sun goes down at least once a day in this area. Not to say that you won't get lost during daylight hours. In either event, carry a flashlight, extra bulb and batteries, compass, GPS, altimeter, cellular phone, food, water, matches and first aid supplies at all times. My advising you of this does not mean there are not other things you should be carrying. Carry them all as well, and know how to use them. I am not responsible for the consequences if you fail to heed this advice. In fact, I am not responsible for the consequences even if you DO heed this advice and, for example, end up in an unplanned bivy because you were carrying too much g*dd@mnstuff, stumble into the bivy fire at 2 am when you get up to take a p!ss, and severely burn theflesh on your hands. You have only yourself toblame, so leave me out of it.
Rocks and other objects can, and probably will, fall from the cliffs. They can tumble down slopes. This can happen naturally, or be caused by people above you, such as climbers. Rocks of all sizes, including huge boulders, can shift, move or fall with no warning. If you don't believe me check out the talus slopes at the base of some of the rock walls. They didn't just grow there. Use of helmets is advised for anyone approaching the rock formations. As a matter of fact, approaching the rock formationsis not advised. That is pretty stupid too. But ifyou DO choose to risk your worthless scrawny neckby going near rocks, shoulder pads, knee pads, elbow pads, athletic cups and supporters and other body armor may be handy as well. These items can be purchased or rented from mountaineering shops and athletic supply stores. They won't save you if you get hit by or scrape against something big or on another part of your body. A whole rock formation might collapse on you leave nothing but a grease spot. Don't think it can't happen. It does, and it probably will.
Weather can be dangerous, regardless of the forecast. Be prepared with extra clothing, including rain gear. Hypothermia, heat stroke, dehydration, frostbite, lightning, ice and snow, runoff from rainstorms, flashfloods, etc. can kill you. Rain can turn easy terrain into a deathtrap, can drown you if you're looking up into the sky with your mouth open, and vastly decreases traction on pavement. Snow is even worse, the hazards ranging from snowball fight injuries to avalanches.
If you scramble in high places (scrambling is moving over terrain steep enough to use your hands) without proper experience, training and equipment, or allow children to do so, you are making a terrible mistake. Even if you know what you're doing and are the most experienced and safest climber the world has ever known, you are still making a terrible mistake: lots of things can and do go wrong and you may be injured or die. It happens all the time.
Furthermore, scrambling amongst the huge boulders in this canyon, even without exposure of high places, can result in serious physical and/or emotional injury, or death.
This area, and this route, are not provided with any rangers or security personnel on any regular basis. The other people in the area, including other visitors, USFS employees, foreign agents, biologists and nature freaks, and anyone else who might sneak in, may be stupid, reckless, a religious fanatic, or otherwise dangerous. They may be mentally ill, criminally insane, drunk, using illegal drugs and/or armed with deadly weapons and ready to use them. I'm not going to do anything about that. I refuse to take responsibility.
Excessive consumption of alcohol, use of prescription drugs, over-the-counter medications, and/or legal or illegal controlled substances while frequenting this area can and probably will affect your mental state, alertness, and decision-making abilities, and could make an already dangerous situation even worse. Even abstinence won't protect you from the actions of others under the influence of such substances. Tough luck. Not my fault.
The driveways, freeways, highways, streets, alleys, back roads and unimproved 4WD tracks leading to this area kill hundreds of folks each year. Many of these fatalities are folks who aren't even on their way to this canyon, who in fact have never heard of this canyon, but are simply innocent victims. Not so you. You have been warned. You could get killed driving to the trailhead. Wearing your seatbelt tightly fastened with the lap belt low across your waist improves your chances of survival, in most cases (except that one steep section of road) but does not and cannot guarantee your safety. You might die before ever stepping out of your vehicle at the trailhead, or on the way home. It can happen any time. If you think you are immune from this kind of thing, you're fooling yourself.
This is not a sterile environment. Bacteria, viruses, protozoa, protoviruses, fungi and other forms of life and protolife which may or may not be currently included in either the plant or animal kingdom are capable of causing you serious bodily harm, illness, or death. These kinds of biological agents are both endemic in the area or present in the plant and animal populations; and are also capable of being carried or transmitted by your climbing partners and travelling companions. I'm not going to take responsibility for this, either. My advice for you to treat drinking water, wash your hands before and after going to the bathroom and before eating, and to not indulge in unprotected sex in this area, in no way obligates me to be responsible for the consequences if you fail to do so, nor does it mean that even if you DO take these precautions and something happens anyway, that I am to blame. Not so. Forget it. Nada. Negativo.
If you climb, you may die or be seriously injured. And the longer you climb the greater your risk of bad luck, which may or may not be compounded by hubris, catching up to you. This is true whether you are experienced or not, trained or not, and equipped or not, though training, experience and equipment may help. It's a fact, climbing is extremely dangerous. If you don't like it, stay at home. You really shouldn't be doing it anyway. I do not provide supervision or instruction. I am not responsible for, and do not inspect or maintain, climbing anchors (including bolts, pitons, slings, trees, etc.) As far as I know, any of them can and probably will suddenly fail without warning and send you plunging to your death with a bloodcurdling scream, likely pulling your partner to his or her doom as well. There are countless tons of loose rock ready to be dislodged and fall on you or someone else. There are any number of inobvious, extremely and unusually dangerous conditions existing on and around the rocks, and elsewhere in the canyon. I probably don't know about any specific hazard, but even if I do, don't expect this topo or its author to try to warn you. You're on your own.
Furthermore, the fact that I'm not trying to stop you from being in this area in no way implies, nor should it be inferred, that I approve, recommend, advocate, or otherwise in any way affirm that such action on your part is anything but incredibly stupid.
Rescue services are not provided by anyone near this climb, and may not be available quickly or at all. In fact, if anything really serious happens to you in this area, you'll probably be dead before word ever reaches civilization. Local rescue squads may not be equipped for or trained in mountain rescue. They probably won't be. If you are lucky enough to have somebody try to rescue you or treat your injuries, they will probably be incompetent or worse. This includes doctors and hospitals. I assume no responsibility. Also, if you decide to participate in a rescue of some other unfortunate, that's your choice. Don't do it unless you are willing to assume all risks, and don't blame me when it goes bad and you end up getting yourself sued in the process.
By using, or even just looking at this topo, you are agreeing that I owe you no duty of care or any other duty, you agree to release me, my relatives, heirs, dependents, and anyone else I care to name, now and forevermore, from any and all claims of liability, even though my actions may be grossly negligent and/or be construed as reckless endangerment, manslaughter, or other misconduct up to and including premeditated murder. By consulting this topo, you agree to waive forever any rights that you, your partners, dependents, heirs, inlaws, and others known or unknown to you may have, to legal compensation resulting from anything that has anything to do with this topo, including but in no way limited to paper cuts from the edge of the topo itself. If you try to sue me in spite of all this, you agree to pay my lawyers fees regardless of the outcome of the suit, and you expressely agree to re-imburse me for any loss or injury, be it financial, physical, emotional, or imagined, which I may experience as a result of such lawsuit.
I promise you nothing. I do not and will not even try to keep the area safe for any purpose. The area is NOT safe for any purpose. This is no joke. I won't even try to warn about any dangerous or hazardous condition, whether I know about it or not. If I do decide to warn you about something, that doesn't mean I will try to warn you about anything else. If I do make an effort to fix an unsafe condition, I may not try to correct any others, and I may actually make matters worse! I may have done things in the area that are unwise and dangerous. I probably did, but I don't remember. Sorry, I'm neither competent nor responsible. The topo gives you bad advice. Don't listen. Or do listen. It's your choice, but you face the consequences either way, whatever they may be.
In short, CLIMB AT YOUR OWN RISK. If you, or your heirs, relatives, dependents or others known or unknown to you; your partner or your partners heirs, relatives, dependents, or others known or unknown to your partner, are the slimy kind of lawyer-touting parasites who would try to sue the author of a topo, If you can't take responsibility for your own decisions, knowledge, routefinding and plain dumb luck, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stay far far away from this route and this canyon, give up climbing, and die of some completely natural, painful, and slowly progressive disease.
Thank you, climb safe, and have fun!
END of Disclaimer"
AND NOW, INTERMISSION OVER, BACK TO BEING NEEDLESSLY RUDE TO EACH OTHER......
LATER DUDES!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
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I don't live in Florida. I don't have an air conditioner. I know that if I lived there I might make different choices in lighting. But I don't.
And that is my point.
If only people were as smart as you. I was talking about black and white thinking as being that which seems to suppose that politicians can only make bad choices and that only the individual can make good choices for itself. Maybe you are better then most politicians. I wouldn't doubt that, but many folks aren't and the decisions they make affect you. If we don't support energy conservation, then many people wouldn't conserve as they are unable to look at the long term affects. Not just of the immediate cost of the bulb, but the cost of providing electricity to that bulb. And not just the financial cost, but the cost to our environment. We are running out of oil. Most folks are afraid of nuclear energy, so we have no new plants being built. This will mean that we will need to build more coal powered plants if we don't do anything else to push and encourage energy savings.
If that is what you want, then yes, continue on with fighting every effort to try and change things.
Do I think this law was a good one? Not completely. But I don't boil it down to only whether I can make a better choice. There are other factors.
We know that greed is killing us, yet many folks still live their life out of greed. We all live together, so we will all suffer if we don't affect change. Yes, if you make better choices, the affect on you wont be as harsh. But that isn't the totality of "you reap what you sow". Because we live together, we affect each other.
A good example of this is world war. You may live an exemplary life, yet be drafted to fight a war because others don't know how to get along and because evil exists. That is what living together means, and is why we try to create laws that make the long term better for everyone. Do we fail sometimes? Yes, we aren't perfect. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try.
We are running out of oil. We will likely have to burn coal at some point. Do you care? Would you prefer to try and put that point off a bit? Do you have some other solution? Because I am all ears if you have another solution.
Edit: And yes, I understand that light bulbs are a tiny part of the equation.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
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If all politicians are bad, then could they make good laws? Do you believe that there are any good laws?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:16pm PT
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Not always Skip. We could save a lot of energy if we perfected LED light bulb.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
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It is old news from the drones.
Thanks for the insult.
So according to you, government can't make any good laws.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:33pm PT
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Somehow I thought you would say that. Too bad.
I'm not the one saying that I can make better decisions then all politicians, thus the individual should be free from politicians and their laws. That is black and white thinking and was what I was arguing against.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
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Your decisions affect others. They have a right to protect themselves from your decisions by putting laws into affect.
Speed limit
Stealing
Whatever.
Laws aren't just about how good of decisions that you can make. They are about how good of decisions that everyone can make.
I don't need a law to keep me from speeding. But I know that others do.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:53pm PT
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I know that Skip. I told you that I was arguing the statement that specific individuals could make better decisions then politicians. Which implies that we should not even have laws because it is black and white thinking.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
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Yeah, but how do they compare with incandescants? WTF is wrong with them???
The CFL bulb is a typical excercise in liberal do-gooding and doing very badly in the end.
F*#king pinkos!
This is an issue of PATRIOTISM. We have recently been involved with THREE WARS, related to the issue of OIL. That oil matters to us, for the production of ENERGY.
Using more energy makes us more dependent upon foreign oil. Using less, less.
If you are in favor of fighting wars for oil, use inefficient energy technology.
But PATRIOTIC Americans are NOT.
These wars are the first that I can remember, that during the duration of those wars, citizens were not involved with individual SACRIFICE. What have people sacrified towards the war effort.
Here comes a technology that reduces energy usage. All we have to do is switch to it. An earlier post cited a link to the municipal switch to LED's in traffic lights, and how that saves money, energy, labor, and pays for itself in under a year.
Folks, it doesn't get better than this. A chance to save money, support the country, help keep us out of wars, reduce our foreign dependency! All we have to do is use it.
With more widespread use, the LED technology will become much better, and much cheaper, as we have found with most technology.
Is the MINOR annoyance that some have worth it to be UNPATRIOTIC?
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