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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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May 11, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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Fattrad, while I find this thread very interesting and relevant, you have no credibility in the thread. . or for that matter on this climbers' site.
I am done discussing the issue with you directly. I am however, open to what MeClimb has to say.
Cheers!
I agree100%!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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I see no reason to pat someone on the back who prefers to stir up trouble. I'm not in the unconditional love group.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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May 11, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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GC:
MikeL, I can only assume that you either did not read the thread, or did not understand it. I did not make the generalization about how most cops feel about this.
I can see you're serious, but you've not responded to my other claims.
Maybe one day in the future you could look back at the pictures that you've posted, the things that you've written, and the number of posts that you've made about this event to see if you continue to agree that you've not inflamed many people with ill-feelings and condemnation beyond the two police officers in question.
No matter though, really. I just thought that you might help yourself out. And, of course, you are none of my business, either. I just sensed you might have gone over the edge. (Just a climber's instinctive reaction to try to reach out to you, my friend.)
Be well.
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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May 11, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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this will be a long post so I appolagize up front.
First off thank you for listening to what I have to say. I know that my opinion is not popular on this site or with the general public in general. I will try to address many of the questions and issues.
Does the public have a right to be angry and appauled that Thomas is dead? Absolutely! This is a tragic and horrible situation. This incident started years before. Thomas had severe psych problems and there is no easy solution to help them. He was an adult and refused to take his medication. I dont know if it was because he did not like to take them, or did not have the money to pay for them. My guess is probably a combination of the two. Police officers are expected to be experts in everything! Criminal and civil law, marriage and family counselors, medical and psychiatric medicine, use of force, traffic and engineering, and god knows what else. Sorry but I am only human and cant do it all. I didnt get my psych degree with my high school diploma so please dont expect me to know the perfect way to deal with the mentally unstable. I do the best I can as due most officers.
I know that MY career choice can result in me being killed. I have been to too many police funerals and been to the CA Police Memorial too many times to forget that. But with that in mind I will always keep officer safety first and foremost in my mind. I have alovely wife, three step kids, three daughters of my own, 10 grandkids (as of about an hour ago with the birh of my new grandson), and will always do what I can to make it home to them. Understand I do not get paid for what I do, but get paid for what I am willing to do. Just like our military, firemen, SAR, and anyone else who puts their life on the line to help others. This is my choice and the choice I made over 20 years ago. Actually probably was never a choice just the way my mind is wired.
I agree that not every technique or tool works every situation. Advising to do what I say is not a threat, but an advisement to comply with lawful orders or it will end bad. We have the greatest country in the world due to a piece of paper that was written over 200 years ago. It also makes law enforcement difficult, but we must play by the rules. Every tool and item in my bag of tricks has a time and place to be used. Just like a # 1 stopper and #4 camalot arent going to work in the same place. When it comes to getting someone to comply with orders the way we re trained is "ask 'em, tell 'em, make 'em." In this incident Ramos asked him to comply, told him to comply, and eventually place his hand on Thomas's shoulder to make him.
As for just letting him go. Sorry not always an option. That can cause just as many if not more problems.
Fatty is absolutely correct when he says your (my) safety first, partner's safety second, and citizen safety next. I must stay safe to be able to help. If i become injured or crash on my way to the problem I have added to the problem and not offered any solution to the problem. Ask Werner he will tell you that they have the same priority.
i am not even remotely sugggesting that an 16 year old being killed is more important than an officer being injured. What I am saying is sometimes a little scrawny kid is way mor violent and dangerous than anyone would ever expect. Just a differnet perspective.
Yes officers stood around during the Columbine shooting. They did exactly like they were trained. Set up a perimeter and wait for SWAT. by debriefing that incident and all of the other active shooter scenarios have changed our training. The latest greatest high speed low drag response has been developed from the thousands of entries the military has made in Iraq and Afganistan. And what it boils down to is find the threat and eliminate the threat. It works Ft. Hood shooting is a great example of it working. but it comes at a cost. We are trained to ignore injured people to end the threat. Try to live with that decision. Cops make mistakes and we learn from them. Debriefing any police action sucks. No matter how well you did you are told what could have been done better.
You are right the dad's employment status should never have been brought into this. I didnt, he did. He was the one who stated he was the ex cop and knows that it should have been handled differently. I cannot stress this enough this is my opinion he is a liar and a money grubbing whore! He didnt want anything to do with hi son when he was alive but now that he is dead he wants the cash to ease his suffering. This is like when the litte gangster get shot and the family tells everyone how he was about to turn his life around. Give me a break. I will get off my soap box now.
The quote from Dave Bailey was from before the video was released. As it turns out he was one of my close friends in high school. I have an email out to him now to see what he thinks now that the video is released.
I think that covers most of the things. Please understand that I can not give out all the information I know but will give out what I can. Feel free to PM me for any other questions.
I will end on this though. I know many of you do not like Fatty's political views and are sometimes offended by him, but understand that he was a cop for many years. In CA the training for reserves and full time are the same. They must pass the same physical, medical, and psych exams. He worked for one of the busiest departments in the world and has most likely seen more things than I have in my 20 years. The only differnce is he made a whopping $1.00 a year to do the same thing.
Eric
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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May 11, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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Stzzo,
it is not always easy. If you have ever wrestled you can understand. I can tell you that everyone wishes they would have been able to do that.
Eric
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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Thanks Eric, for your explanations
I don't have much problem with how this incident went once the fighting started. Though I do know that some didn't like the seeming lack of concern once he was turning cyanotic.
I wrestled in high school and have been in a fair amount of fights, so I know how difficult it can be to get some people to do things. When their fear gets ratcheted up, the adrenaline flows and they become very strong.
What I have a problem with is how the officer handled the situation when the person was on the ground. I believe that the threats escalated the situation, rather then defusing it or cowing the person. The homeless guy was obviously already agitated, but I think the cop made it worse. I do have some experience with dealing with the mentally ill, even those who have violent tendencies. I am not an expert, so I know that I could be wrong. I know that we live in a violent society and that it takes a lot of force to deal with that. I have seen how one kind of action can escalate a situation, and how a different type action can diffuse it. All that from the very same person.
Part of my history is having a good friend whose brother was mentally ill and abused drugs. he was very strong and also violent at times. I have seen an expert get mad and try to use force to get him to behave, and then realize it was only making things worse and then back off and change tactics and that worked. I have also seen that nothing but brute force was going to work because he was in just too agitated of a state and wasn't going to calm down anytime soon and was on the verge of hurting himself or someone else.
I also know that the uniform itself can cause these people to be even more agitated, because it represents a loss of control over their own lives. So people who work with the mentally ill can sometimes do what a police officer couldn't do simply because the police officer represents something different then the social worker.
So I do understand that there is a lot at play here.
As for Jeff, it would be easier to appreciate his service if he wasn't such an arrogant tool who likes to jerk people around and play the know it all. How he spoke to Nita about her situation, as though she couldn't possibly be right is a prime example. She turned out to be right.
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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May 11, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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Thanks John!
When it comes to the mentally unstable you never know what is going to happen. Here is an example from someone we deal with at least once a week.
One day he will be completly cooperative and will do everything you want, including turning around so we can take him to jail. The next day you had better be ready for the worst fight of your life. He has fought with nearly everyone of our cops. We have tried working with mental health but what it comes down to is he is an adult who wants to live on the streets and doesnt want to take his medication.
What do we do with him? I wish I had the answers or even a direction to go in. My fear is that one day this turns into the same type of incident. I personaly have tried to find an answer to solve the problem. I do not want me or one of my partners to be front page news.
These are horrible situations and we as a nation have failed.
Eric
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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ME Climb, thank you for responding at such length and being honest about your feelings.
Yesterday, in justifying the need of police to take action against detained individuals and place them in stress positions, you wrote:
It has been over 60 years since there were less than 100 cops killed in a year in the US and I do everything I can to make sure I am not one of them.
Where did you get your numbers from?
The Officer Down Memorial Page ot www.odmp.org tracks all officers who die in the line of duty. They list 166 deaths in 2010, but this is from all causes (including auto accidents, heart attacks, training accidents, etc.) If you count only those that were murdered it is 81 - clearly under 100. by See http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2011
Even 1 is too many of course. But the statistics you were told appear to be clearly exaggerated.
Now do you know how many citizens were "accidentally" killed by police? I'm not even sure they track this information but would not be surprised if it was more than 81.
Fatty is absolutely correct when he says your (my) safety first, partner's safety second, and citizen safety next.
How about we have each officer show at LEAST as much concern for the safety of their partners and the public as they show for their own?
The problem with cops taking the position that their own personal safety comes first and the safety of the public comes third and last is: (1) the public hired them to "to protect and serve" and (2) cops very often take actions that marginally enhance their safety by putting the public at greatly increased risk. Like when the LAPD fires 91 bullets at an unarmed man.
I cannot stress this enough this is my opinion he is a liar and a money grubbing whore! He didn't want anything to do with hi son when he was alive but now that he is dead he wants the cash to ease his suffering. This is like when the litte gangster get shot and the family tells everyone how he was about to turn his life around.
You said that you did not know Ron Thomas yourself but that you'd heard a lot of rumours. So is it fair for me to assume that this opinion is based on what you heard from fellow officers and that they share this opinion? If this is the case, I'm not surprised. Ron Thomas has been relentless in pushing for investigations of both the cops who attacked his son and the Fullerton Police Department. I cannot imagine any other farther in his shoes feeling differently then he would, but he's probably been more effective in channeling his feelings than most others would be. The only reason we're even talking about this issue is his doing. If it wasn't for his campaign, the DA's investigation probably never would have happened, there wouldn't have been any prosecution, and this wouldn't be front page news.
Also Ron Thomas never claimed that his son was about to turn his life around. He was under no such illusions. He knew that Kelly's schizophrenia would not go away, He also was not able to get Kelly to take his medication.
Also, ME Climb, if you really think that Ron Thomas is a "money-grubbing whore" then how can you explain why he is so relentlessly pursuing a criminal prosecution of the involved officers rather than a civil case against the city? If he wanted to maximize his ability to obtain a monetary judgment, he would want to DOWNPLAY the possibility that the officers were committing a crime (meaning that they are acting OUTSIDE of the scope of their job) and instead argue that they were acting NEGLIGENTLY due to poor training, improper department policies and so on.
You call him a "liar" - what false statements do you accuse him of making?
It seems that your fellow officers -- you know, the ones that are feeding you the "rumours" that you are basing your opinions of him on -- have a real chip on their shoulder, and it seems you do too.
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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May 11, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
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The. Umber I have is based on the national memorial page and it does include any line of duty death. I am reminded by it everyday by the huge poster in our locker room.
The reason cops must put their safety first is because we can not help anyone if we are not able to do so because we are injured. We have to be part of the solution not another piece of the problem.
As for why sr Thomas is doing what he is my guess is he feels guilty by abandoning his son.
Eric
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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May 11, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Thank you for your thoughtful post MeClimb, but I don't buy that police should put their own safety first. You signed up for the job. If you guys cannot do it professionally, then our society has failed to put that expectation on you, and you have failed in your profession. (I hope that you will always return safely to your family, and that you will make good judgements in your job. It must be very difficult.)
Also, you cannot compare your job to Werner's. His is difficult and dangerous but for generally very different reasons. His training is to pull people off of giant cliffs and yours is to know how to handle these difficult situations. Again, I'm not saying that it would be easy.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
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Your memory is clouded.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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May 11, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
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Fatty, Bull shit! .......You seem so out of hand/ angry lately, what's up?....
I know your a better person than you've been acting .
dang, home for 5 minutes...back to work....
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morphus
Mountain climber
Angleland
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May 12, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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<quote>I don't have much problem with how this incident went once the fighting started</quote>
WTF?!?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 14, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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It has been over 60 years since there were less than 100 cops killed in a year in the US and I do everything I can to make sure I am not one of them.
The FBI put the number of slain law enforcement officers in 2011 at 73.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/14/us/fbi-slain-police/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
I am reminded by it everyday by the huge poster in our locker room.
This does not give me a lot of confidence in ME Climber's department.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 14, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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People try to say that crab fishing in the Bering is the deadliest job.
Bullshlt!
Climbing guide!!!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 14, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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How many climbing guides start their trip by telling their clients: "MYsafety comes first"?
All the climbing guides were mindful of safety, but they put the safety of their clients FIRST.
Edit: See the chart on page 5 http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf
Farmers, ranchers and truck drivers have a MUCH higher fatality rate than cops.
Edit: I do not object to officers being safety-minded, but rather only their taking actions that REDUCE The safety of the public for marginal increases in their perceived safety.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 14, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
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True, some other professions have higher fatalities and injuries, but they are always accidents.
Not true for professions that involve working in high crime areas. Also many of the law enforcement fatalities and injuries are accidents.
I want to ask again if the numbers of police-inflicted fatalities or injuries are tracked.
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