Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 121 - 136 of total 136 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 20, 2011 - 01:18am PT
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke).

This is one of my favorite quotes also.

The problem with crowded urban areas, is that people are less inclined to intervene with strangers than if it's someone they know.

And there truly is a generation of kids in North America, both sides of the border, who have grown up with no consequences and no sense of reality due to too much time spent not on television and violent video games. I think Tami really nailed that particular issue.

Anyway, so sorry this has happened, as Vancouver has always been one of my favorite cities in the world and I still feel safer there than in any other North American city of the same size.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 20, 2011 - 01:28am PT
Tami,
You have to excuse our Wes. He's from Slackramento and is used to consorting
with back-bench ruffians.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 20, 2011 - 01:33am PT
The police department received so many photos and videos that their server crashed. Which, considering it's essentially part of the city's system, is saying something.

And Edmund Burke was a Whig (liberal), when that really meant something.

The roots of what happened are woven in the fabric of what has become Vancouver, and in a sense we're all responsible. Civic boosters like to vaunt that we're a big city, and world class, but we don't have that maturity. We're still in some ways the rough-edged industrial port city founded only 125 years ago - although we do seem to have finally lost the institutional racism.

The city was built on real estate development and natural resources, both somewhat volatile, though slowly diversifying. Certainly an ideal location, although geography is against us in terms of room to grow. A delta fragmented by several branches of a large river, plus adjoining mountains, fjords, and the border. (Little room without significantly densifying, which is the real issue.) In the early 1970s, our provincial government protected most of the agricultural land in the region, and so that's not available. There are two only major blocks of undeveloped non-park land in the city proper, the Arbutus corridor (formerly a rail right of way, so now an 80 x 1/2 block parcel), and the Jericho lands (16 square block, but subject to native land claims).

In the early 1980s, we had a severe recession. Expo 86 started to bring us back out of it, and then the sale to and development of the Expo lands by offshore interests. Plus the federal government creating an "investment immigrant" category, which has led to large numbers first of Hong Kong (pre-1997 especially) and now mainland Chinese finding our real estate and commercial world a safe one to park their money, although how Canadian they become is an open question. Likewise some other groups, such as south Asians. Although in both cases, some have been in Canada longer than many whites.

The city has grown significantly in the last 25 years, and diversified. Whether for good or bad remains to be seen, as there's a lot of undigested change. Probably what we need more than anything is a bit of a breathing space, some stability. The hype of civic boosters, as exemplified in the 2010 winter Olympics (OK, we were going to eventually have to put up with them), is at cross purposes with that. Current talk that we're in a real estate bubble is of real concern.

We have a city where incivility is becoming distressingly common - aggressive driving, people driving while using cell phones (big fine if caught), epidemic graffiti, littering, impersonal behaviour, and so on. Perhaps some of it is the baby boomer generation and their offspring, most of whom are extraordinary fortunate, and some of whom are annoyingly entitled. And there is still a significant group of people without high school, with limited job prospects - white trash, many natives, many immigrants. The latter with language barriers also. Not to mention that Canada's weather in effect tilts the country to Vancouver - the down and out tend to gravitate here, due to climate if nothing else.

Overall, the city and its police department seem to bear much of the responsibility for not being prepared. They claim we're a big city, and weren't ready for it. The riot was no surprise, and there were preventive measures that the city could have taken beforehand, as well as that day before and during the game, as it became clear that there were problems.

There's no going back to Vancouver as it was, and golden ages often become more golden in retrospect. But maybe it's time for a bit of a break, after the breathtaking change of the last decades.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jun 20, 2011 - 01:45am PT
Having grown up in Baltimore and watching parts of that city burn following Martin Luther King's killing in 1968, I saw the conditions that led to those riots. Long-term racism, staggering poverty, and a political system still anchored the pre-Civil War South made conditions nearly unlivable for many city residents. King's killing tripped the switch.

The punks in Vancouver last week are more like the University of Colorado students that riot after a football game doesn't end the way they wish. This behavior is worse because it is a violence coming from a middle class choice to be violent for their own entertainment. Crowds seem to blur the reality/fantasy divide.

You folks a few minutes to the north have a great city; take pride in it and press the city leaders to take your concerns seriously.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 20, 2011 - 01:54am PT
Hate to say it, but riots aren't anything new in Vancouver. Starting at least with the Komagatu Maru riot in 1914, to prevent a shipload of Sikhs from landing in the harbour. The post office/depression riot in the 1930s. Rolling Stones "riot" of 1972. Winter Olympics, 2010. Others. There's even a book on it, "Reading the Riot Act: A Brief History of Riots in Vancouver" (http://www.amazon.ca/Reading-Riot-Act-History-Vancouver/dp/1895636671);

There wasn't a riot in 1982 when the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup final to the Islanders, but no one expected them to be in the final.

Speaking of which, Boston may have Stanley's Cup, but we have his park, for good - 400 hectares of nature, beside downtown. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Park

Humans misbehaving when part of a mob is nothing new, however they might behave as individuals.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 20, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
The Canadian Press

Date: Sun. Jun. 19 2011 8:21 PM ET

Last week he was a rising star on Canada's junior water polo team with dreams of making it to the Olympics. Now Nathan Kotylak is an emotional teenager whose world has been rocked by the consequences of his role in the Stanely Cup riots.

Kotylak apologized on Sunday saying his actions last Wednesday were "dumb" and he was ready to take responsibility for what occurred.

"For reasons I can't really explain, I went from being a spectator to becoming part of the mob mentality that swept through many members of the crowd," the 17-year-old from Maple Ridge, B.C. said in a statement provided by his lawyer.

"I want to say as clearly as I can that there is no excuse for my behaviour."

Kotylak turned himself into police after social media sites posted pictures showing a youth stuffing a burning rag into the gas tank of a police car in the raucous aftermath of the Canucks' Stanley Cup loss to the Boston Bruins.

He is currently under investigation and has also been suspended from the national junior men's water polo team.

.......................................



He has clearly been getting advice from politicians on tearfull mea culpas.
I hope it doesn't wash. Do the crime - do the time
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 20, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
The fact that Kotylak was 17, and being considered for the national water polo team, suggest that he has some discipline and values. Whether he considered himself entitled, because of that or his family, is another matter.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 20, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
The Olympic had fights ( boxing ) every Thursday night.

Any time there were two Mexican flyweights on the card, there was sure to be a riot, no matter who won.

That was before they bolted the chairs to the floor.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 20, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
I've been hesitant to write this, as I know a lot of people (including myself) are quite upset about what happened in Vancouver, but I'm wondering if what Kotylak and some other kids did is related to the "teenage brain". By this I mean the unfinished development of the prefrontal cortex. Neuroscience studies say that teenagers brains are physically very different than adults and some of this accounts for adolescent behavior that is extremely hard to comprehend. I know explanations like this are perhaps too simplistic, but its hard to imagine how a kid can be stupid enough to try to light a cop car on fire in full public view. It was obvious how many digital cameras were out during the riots. When I first saw the photos of Kotylak I was enraged and wanted this guy to serve some serious prison time. My perspective shifted when I discovered he was 17 years old and an elite athlete. As Mighty Hiker mentions, to be a high level competitive swimmer takes enormous discipline and serious training. I simply don't believe this kid is delinquent and spoiled enough to do the stupid thing he did. A lot of teenage behavior doesn't make sense from an adult perspective and I wonder if some of the neuroscience studies help explain this.

Do a google search for "teenage brain" and there's a lot of info similar to what I'm pasting below. I'm not trying to "excuse" what happened. I think there was a also lot of mob behavior and "thug" mentality.....

http://www.childrenshospital.org/dream/summer08/the_teenage_brain.html

Bad behavior
Although teens' brains are superior in some ways, they're distinctly immature in one key area. The last part of the brain to fully connect up - well past the teenage years - is the frontal lobe, which houses judgment, insight, dampening of emotions and impulse control. Since it isn't fully developed, there's a cognitive chasm between coming up with an idea and being able to decide if it's actually a good one. "This begins to explain why these smart little whippersnappers are so incredibly risk-taking and irrational," says Jensen. "These are people with very sharp brains, but they're not quite sure what to do with them."

Interestingly, the faculty of insight - the ability to judge one's own actions and predict consequences - develops in the frontal lobe in stages: First as the ability to be objective and judge others' actions and later as subjective analysis and to be able to consistently think, 'If I do this, something bad might happen.' "It's fascinating that teens can see their friend about to do the wrong thing and say, 'Don't do that!,' whereas they can't yet recognize their own behavior as dangerous," says Jensen. "They really can and should act as each others' keepers."

also: http://bungelab.berkeley.edu/conference09/LearningBrain_Bunge_Feb09.pdf
Willoughby

Social climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 20, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
You know who has had a good riot in a while? Omaha, Nebraska
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 20, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
Wait for the day when the people riot over something more serious than a hockey game. That riot won't be so easy to handle.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jun 21, 2011 - 12:35am PT
Folks have to understand how redneck most of Canada is...

Spot on. Most Americans (and most Canadians who have lived all their lives in Vancouver) like to believe that everyone in Canada is kind, gentle, well educated, etc etc etc. But anyone who has lived in western Canada outside of Vancouver knows that just ain't so. I grew up in Saskatchewan, which is where socialism made its grand entrance to North America. And it was, and is, full of rednecks. Socialist rednecks, but rednecks just the same. Not that that has anything to do with the riots in Vancouver, but even Vancouver isn't what most people seem to think it is.

As for Vancouver, when I left the place a dozen years ago, it was the murder capital of Canada, the heroin capital of North America, and the AIDS capital of the first world. About 20 years ago, my climbing partner and good friend was asked to escort a delegation from Seattle around Vancouver. Why? Because he was a senior detective on the VPD Drug Squad, and the Seattle City Council wanted to know what drug-related problems their city might face in the future. People who live in Vancouver and think it is a special, magical place that is somehow different from other cities are willfully blind.

A bunch of mostly young and mostly drunk as#@&%es went on a rampage. This is hardly big news. It has nothing to do with house prices, sports, class, race, or any other f*#king thing. It happens because that's what young drunk as#@&%es sometimes do in first-world countries. And drink can turn a lot of otherwise decent people into as#@&%es, whether they live in Vancouver or any other city. Were they angry because a sports team lost a game? Were they angry because they were poor? Because immigrants had taken their jobs? Because their parents had not instilled into them respect for others? Because because because...

Feh
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 21, 2011 - 01:01am PT
Damian "Football" Williams was an athlete, too.

http://www.streetgangs.com/topics/2007/042507football.html
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 21, 2011 - 01:12am PT
Tami, I'm talking about what happens in the BRAIN of teenagers.

You must have witnessed some behavior that doesn't make sense. Like, "What are they thinking!!! Don't they have a brain?"

Ghost, I agree - I've lived in northern BC and spent time in Prince George. Scary.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jun 21, 2011 - 02:11am PT
Spank them.. yes. Beat them.. well.. some of them.

I worked with high school kids, and I have seen them do some of the dumbest things imaginable. I think that post about brain development is probably right on. That doesn't mean I want these kids to skate on their responsibility. I just like to take the whole picture into consideration and I think that how kids brains develop is part of the picture. They each seem to develop responsibility at a different rate. I hate this notion that once you reach a certain age, then you are an adult. It just doesn't work for me. I know kids who are more grown up at 13 then most adults are at 35. And I have seen the opposite.


Not an excuse.. just an understanding.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 22, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
People (vigilantes) are now harassing the employers of some of the vandals who've been outed, or who turned themselves in.
Messages 121 - 136 of total 136 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta