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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 21, 2011 - 07:45am PT
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I admire people that go out of their comfort zone... Just not when it endangers themselves and others. Freezing on the cables forcing people to pass around you on such dangerous terrain.
So I guess climbing need to be banned in Yosemite.
I can't really see the difference between the cables on halfdome and the paved and manufactured trails that can be found in the Valley. The fall trail is more or less a staircase if I remember correctly.
One thing I also remember from the valley is all climber trails with tens of different paths through some sections. Are climber trails even allowed?
It really isn't like climbers don't leave an impact in the valley.
I have walked down the half dome trail twice and it seems like a very good hike.
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EWG
Trad climber
Vermont
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
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Many of you (especially the gifted like Donini)forget that most of America is not like you.
If you want the rest of the country to give a f*#k about the wilderness, they've got to have a taste too.
People are selfish--without that taste, without an experience to make "wilderness adventure" personal, they're not gonna give a crap about preserving it.
In a perfect world, the cables don't exist. But in reality, the cables seem like a worthwhile trade-off to me...
-e
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Tom10
Trad climber
Colorado Springs, CO
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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Let them be! The park is for people and obviously lots of people enjoy going to the top of Half Dome. I have been up the cables and I wish the park would put in a second set of cables to handle the crowds.
Tom
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jstan
climber
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
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"What is wrong with Via Ferrata? We should have more of them."
If you are coming from a climbing perspective I can see how the cables should go.
But what is the climbing perspective? You now have to wait in line at the base of the Nose Route, right? How long before speed records on routes will require pre-placed draws? And why should only a few people enjoy pre-placed draws? It is wilderness. There should be no pre-placed draws. Just like there "should" be no cables on HD.
We are standing in quicksand folks.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 21, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
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In a perfect world, the cables don't exist.
Maybe in a rock climbers perfect world but in some peoples perfect world, a monorail through the park and safe audio-animatronic animals and a petting zoo might be more just the thing.
Rock climbers seem to be incapable of seeing things from anyone else's point of view, or worse yet, seeing all others points of view as innately invalid because they are not rock climbers.
Get rid of the roads before bothering with the cables.
Dave
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EWG
Trad climber
Vermont
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Apr 21, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
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rectorsquid,
by picking out that sentence for a quote, you were actually able to make it look like I support the opposite position that my post supports. perhaps i should not have written that sentence--I'm not sure I believe it, upon reflection.
it also seems like you're saying that everyone's opinion is entitled to respect.
this is not true. relativistic arguments aren't worth your time.
-e
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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 21, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
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Why is the cables or a via ferrata worse in the wilderness compared to a trail?
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Apr 21, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
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These folks all experienced something akin to you guys topping out on El Cap ... they faced fears ... they learned something about themselves ... they have memories that will last to the grave - and grow with each retelling ... and 4 additional grandkids have learned to love Yosemite (almost ready for the "trek") ...
Without the cables - none of these adventures ...
So I say leave the cables ... if one wants solitude there are other ways to the top ... there are places in the valley where one can be alone ... we climbers have our "cables" all over Yosemite in the form of bolts and anchors ...
In this world where "big brother" thinks he knows best and wants to rule every aspect of our lives, let's grant this bit of adventure where folks can confront their spirit and see who dwells therein ...
+1 for the real frog
Climbers are tourists too. We are no better or more entitled because we follow a path closer to vertical.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
My ready room
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Apr 22, 2011 - 12:26am PT
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Word. F*#k it. The Earth will take care of them. She's got time on her side.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 22, 2011 - 01:13am PT
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Let he (or she) who hath never clipped a bolt or fixed anchor, remove the first half dome cable.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Apr 22, 2011 - 02:21am PT
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I forgot to register my vote. Leave em up! They arent hurting anything. If you dont like em dont go round to the backside of the dome where you can see em. Problem solved.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 22, 2011 - 10:35am PT
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Is it the dish Network or DIRECT TV?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 22, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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There is undeveloped Sierra, in the immediate proximity to the cables, around Half Dome, around Yosemite, stretching for a 150 miles to the north and south. There is one Cable route in all the Californias. Why the need to erase someone else's history - a history none of you removal advocates had anything to do with?
Bingo.
The WIlderness designation for this corridor-- as for the extension to include the face of El Cap --was entirely about maximizing enforcement options for the NPS. Folks who want to see Wilderness borders patrolled that carefully then euqally ought to support a vastly reduced climber impact on El Cap including mandatory permits for overnight stays and a reduction of total parties allowed on the wall by about 85 or 90%.
Be careful what you wish for. Yr idiots if you think you can get Wilderness enforcement against "tourists" and not against your selves.
What would John Muir do?
Climb the cables! As a matter of fact, that's what he did. He loved that first ascent. He was thrilled that it was done by a Scot.
Would he like it now? Who cares.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 22, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
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Compromise can be the best solution.
Take down one cable.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Apr 22, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
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Leave them. My daughter who is afraid of heights but really wanted to do half-dome was thrilled to be able to get up top. Even with the cables it was a challenge for her, knowing her limitations I set her up to ensure her safety and the safety of others, plus we planned the ascent late in the season mid-week to avoid the crowds. She was totally stoked to get up there and will carry this memory forever.
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Adamame
climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 22, 2011 - 01:22pm PT
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I vote for a third cable.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 22, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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Adamame, that (a 3rd cable) was proposed in another thread after a fatality. I think it's a great idea, even though I understand the feelings of those folks who think the cables should be removed.
Let's face it, Yosemite is "wilderness" as much as San Francisco is a port. Yes, it is that. But to many, many folks--it's so much more. A round-trip to the top of Half Dome is for many the peak of their wilderness experience--for their whole lives. Why take away that opportunity?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 22, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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Where do you draw the line...
Climbers seem to draw the line somewhere around allowing rock climbers all access while getting rid of tourists. Some people could easily argue that removing bolts is not enough and that stopping climbers from climbing on the rocks is the only way to truly protect the wilderness. After all, climbers litter too and dang, after 6 is really smooth, unlike the rough surface that was on the rock 100 years ago.
If the question is where do I personally draw the line, I'd have to think a lot about what other people on this planet need and they decide to screw someone out of access, be it climbers, tourons, or even the hard-core hike-out-your-poop types who don't use roads and eat tree bark.
In the end, someone gets access and someone else does not. Many of us are in full on selfish mode and think that our rock climbers access is fine but everyone who has more impact is evil. I'm glad to see that at least a few climbers allow for the fact that non-climbers perhaps deserver the same right to trash the wilderness as we climbers have.
Instead of debating a specific feature removal, how about just picking what sort of access should be available for Yosemite Valley:
1. None. protect it all.
2. No trails, very limited entry permits, fines for leaving even human poop in the area. No climbing!
3. Trails, very limited entry permits, fines for leaving even human poop in the area. No climbing!
4. Trails. Poop allowed. Climbing allowed. No fixed gear.
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8. Roads, toilets, campgrounds, climbing, fixed gear. No cables!
9. Roads, toilets, hotel, climbing, fixed gear, cables.
10. Roads, monorail, petting zoo, cable car to the top of HD and El Cap, cables too dangerous so an escalator, ...
Sorry if I didn't group things well. It was an impromptu list.
I'm guessing that the selfish types will pick the item in the list that describes what they like to do and excludes everyone else. Who is brave enough to restrict their own access? Anyone for items 1, 2, or 3?
Dave
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 22, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
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I think we should leave the cables, but they should only be used for getting up halfadome. People should be left to their own devices to get down for a true wild-erness experience.
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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 23, 2011 - 11:34am PT
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Karen, think how much more spectacular it would have been for her if she had conquered her fear of heights and been taken up Snake Dike.
So a more or less completely bolted climb is better than the cables? If you said solo snake dike you might have a point.
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