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JLB
Trad climber
Smiths, AL
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Sep 17, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
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I see a great deal of opinions on here, stated as fact. Don't really care about the labels that are flying around - right, left, anti-this, anti-that. Doesn't matter. Again, just want people to be open minded and think for themselves. And, maybe even actually respect others.
On that note, on the reading and researching I have done, and based on my FAITH, and my OPINION, I would like to simply respond to the opinions of there not being science in the Bible. Itis my opinion there is. One book that I would refer you to is Job. It was written over 4,000 years ago and contains scientific references to which modern science has discovered in what I would refer to as "recently". A very quick and simple google search will show you that modern science "discovered" springs on the floor of the ocean in 1977. these were spoken of in Job over 4,000 years ago. You form your own opinion on that. I personally think that is pretty cool. The same book encourages everyone to form their own opinion by examining science - "...speak to the earth and it will teach thee..." The Hebrew word used there for "speak" actually means to "ponder, muse, commune, study"; and not just "speak". I encourage people to do that.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 17, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
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Fructose got me on this one:
Hakuna matata
is a Swahili phrase that is literally translated as "There are no worries". It is sometimes translated as "no worries", although is more commonly used similarly to the English phrase "no problem". [1]
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 17, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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I always liked this one too.
"Kumbayah"
(Gullah, "Come By Here" — "Kum ba yah") — is an African-American spiritual song from the 1930s. It enjoyed newfound popularity during the folk revival of the 1960s and became a standard campfire song in Scouting and other nature-oriented organizations.
The song was originally associated with human and spiritual unity, closeness and compassion, and it still is, but more recently it is also cited or alluded to in satirical, sarcastic or even cynical ways that suggest blind or false moralizing, hypocrisy, or naively optimistic views of the world and human nature.[1]
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 17, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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it is not an opinion regarding science in the Bible... there is no predictive science in the Bible if there were, and the prediction turned out to be incorrect, then the Bible would be shown to have made a false statement undercutting its authority.
So by definition everything that the Bible "predicts" must be true.
Now another thing about this "prediction" is that it takes place after the fact, so it is not a true prediction, but rather once we know something we go back into the Bible to find it there... this is a process sure to produce results, just not anticipating the actual fact. So it is useless as a way of doing science, it is not science, that is not an opinion, that is a statement of fact based on the definition of what science is.
A prediction is a consequence of the logic of your argument, not a part of the original input, but some consequence of taking the logic of the argument and applying it to a new situation. So, for instance, Darwin said that his theory of evolution required two things, that if either of them were not correct the theory could not be true. These things were that the earth had to be old enough so that evolution could take place and that there must be a mechanism that is responsible for hereditary variability. Since Darwin the earth's age has been established to be 4+ Billion years, and we know about DNA and genomic science.
Evolution is much more sophisticated than the original theory proposed by Darwin. And it is the foundation of biology, you can't separate the two... it is the way the world works.
What does the Bible predict that, if it were shown to be false, would invalidate the Bible?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 17, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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Blind Faith
were an English blues-rock band that consisted of Eric Clapton, Ginger Baker, Steve Winwood and Ric Grech. The band, which was one of the first "super-groups", released their only album, Blind Faith, in August 1969. They were stylistically similar to the bands in which Winwood, Baker, and Clapton had most recently participated, Traffic and Cream.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 17, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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Norton, I'm surprised. You didn't catch The Lion King? LOL!
So this from Chris Matthews, Hardball, today:
"The Senator from Delaware? That's right. The prominence of Christine O'Donnell this week tells you how much the Republican Party has changed."
.....
I still haven't gotten around to verifying this: prokaryotes carry out more photosynthesis than eukaryotes. Ed, thanks for the inspiration to restudy some things, I'm getting old, you get rusty on things after awhile.
More from Chris:
"Progressives are fools to underestimate her."
Totally agree, entropy's always at work.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 17, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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I could be wrong...
...it's great when you can be checked and corrected!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 17, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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Fructose, I turned 60 last month.
Surely you understand.
Slip slip slipping away
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Sep 17, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
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JLB,
Nice :-)
Ok, the others bashing the Good Book again need to learn some truth. Don't make me have to take you out to the woodshed again, and post up all kinds of science truth found in Bible Code. I'll do it. I'll do it!:
http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scientificfactsintheBible.shtml
Scientific Facts in the Bible
1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.
3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).
4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).
5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).
6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.
7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."
8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).
9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.
11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."
12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15–24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.
13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."
14. Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.
15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence." (11:3 continued)
Now we could go on and on, but maybe just buy the book instead.
The Evidence Bible:
http://www.livingwaters.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=32&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=199
How about I post the description of Wormwood again, and the significant damage to the Earth by this prophecied massive asteroid that will plow into the Earth in Earth's future, destroying a 3rd of the planet, described very accurately within the Book of Revelation? Yea, the Bible knew about Asteroid impacts way before modern science ever did. And that isn't the only impact that the Bible is witness to. We have only come to a full understanding of the science of Comet and Asteroid Impact Geomorphology and Meteoritics within the last 50 years or less.
Modern Cosmology and the Book of Genesis are very much in agreement. Read the book, The Science of GOD.
The Holy Bible, a Supernatural Book of the Past, Present, and Future. No other book like it. It is GOD's Book.
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JLB
Trad climber
Smiths, AL
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Sep 17, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."
The steps of the Scientific Method are:
Observation/Research
Hypothesis
Prediction
Experimentation
Conclusion
Prediction is only 1 part of the scientific method. Unfortunately, you guys have the same problem you claim I have with prediction - observing something and then explaining it only within the confines of evolution, without thinking critically of just the observable facts. I personally try to explain observations from more than 1 origination model because I truly want to test what I believe. That, my friend, is not blind faith. I pesonally think it is healthy to test your own beliefs, and less healthy to ridicule others' beliefs. And I like Blind Faith's music. Truth is, that science is only absolute when it is absoultely 100% observable - we KNOW that something happens that way every time. Nat Geo just showed what they claim is "evolution in action" where certain yellow-bellied skinks have changed from laying eggs to giving live birth. Maybe that is a micro-evolution. Unfortunately for evolution as a means to explain the origin of life - they were giving birth to more yellow-bellied skinks, not some other species. Proof of micro-evolution? Maybe. Proof of macro-evolution as the one and only explanation to the origin of all life? I am not convinced. Maybe you are, and that is fine. I am not going to ridicule you or mock you in any way for that.
For the example of the springs in the sea - don't just take what you claim is my opinion, these are easily testable facts - Job written 4,000 years ago, springs discovered by man 33 years ago - 2.5 km under the surface on the Galapagos Rift. With those facts, I don't believe that "the Bible just said what man already knew" - given those easily testable facts. Please tell me how man knew about them at that depth 4,000+ years ago. If you want to yell "blind faith" at me given those facts, more power to you. However, I would encourage you to think critically, form your own opinion, then respect others.
Again, peace guys. Obviously you guys are passionate about your beliefs, as am I. I completely respect that. Thankful to live in a country where we can speak our minds and think for ourselves. If you guys want to label me as right-wing and call me anti-science, doesn't hurt my feelings a bit.
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JLB
Trad climber
Smiths, AL
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Sep 17, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
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Wow - good stuff Klimmer.
Job 38:35 - "can thou send the lightning ..... to say "here we are"." Maybe God is saying you can actually communicate with the help of electricity? I know my cell phone has to be charged every day.
I know one thing, there are several people who should be thankful that I can't "send the lighting." That would be pretty cool if I could.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 17, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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JLB you don't get to redefine science, what you are talking about is not science
it might be something else, and you're free to pursue it, but don't appropriate a term to mean something it does not
the scientific method works by showing that a hypothesis is false
so it requires testable hypotheses
evolution is consistent with observations as a rigorous logical extension of the theory
we do not say that evolution is proved we say it is not disproved
the data are the data
however in science we describe the manner in which we obtain the data in enough detail so someone else can go out and obtain the same data independently
this is because in science the data should be reproducible
we also recognize the finiteness of our observations and quote agreement or disagreement in terms of a statistical estimate
this is the way it works, it is not so formulaic as checking off the list of steps in someone's description of the "scientific method"
the Bible and religion can be said to explain data and observation, but this is through construction, the simplest construction is that God created the universe as it is to appear to obey all of our scientific theories at some point about 6000 years ago.
This is consistent with observation.
However, it does not provide a way of predicting all of what God did, in the construction theory, God did everything, so anything new we find was also part of the creation.
But it doesn't allow us to test anything.
It provides no hypothesis by which we can reject the hypothesis that the universe is created by God.
That is perfectly acceptable to most religions, but it is not science.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 17, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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Speaking of prophecies in the bible, how about the ones that were NOT fulfilled.
Unfulfilled prophecies
The Bible also contains prophecies that are disputed, including
Joshua said that God would, without fail, drive out the Jebusites and Canaanites, among others. According to the Book of Joshua,[45] those tribes were not driven out.
It is true that the Israelites could not drive out all Canaanite tribes in the lifetime of Joshua. According to F.F. Bruce there remained even several Canaanite fortified positions strung along the Plain of Jezreel, from the Mediterranean coast to the Jordan and the stronghold of Jerusalem as a Canaanite (Jebusite) enclave.[46]
The book of Joshua with the above mentioned passages and the book of Judges (chapter 1) themselves delineate which towns could not be defeated and that the Israelites had to accept Canaanites living next to them. This shows that the Bible does not palliate historical facts but reports what happened even if it causes tensions concerning prophecy and its fulfillment. On the other hand we have to see that the main content of this prophecy was fulfilled because the Israelites could occupy Canaan by defeating its inhabitants although the complete seizure took place only in the time of monarchy (David defeated the Jebusites in Jerusalem and made it the capital of his empire.[47][48]
Tyre harbour
Ezekiel predicts that the ancient city of Tyre will be utterly destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and "made a bare rock" which will "never be rebuilt" (Ezekiel 26:1, 26:7-14, 26:32). However, Tyre withstood Nebuchadrezzar's siege for 13 years, ending in a compromise in which the royal family was taken into exile but the city survived intact.
Apologists note that the prophecy states that "many nations" would accomplish the destruction of Tyre, and claim that this refers to later conquerors (Ezekiel 26:3), but skeptics[49][50] counter that this was a reference to the "many nations" of Nebuchadrezzar's multinational force (Nebuchadrezzar was described by Ezekiel as "king of kings", i.e., an overking, a ruler over many nations), and that subsequent conquerors didn't permanently destroy Tyre either (it is now the fourth-largest city in Lebanon). Ezekiel himself admitted later that Nebuchadnezzar could not defeat Tyre (Ezekiel 29:18). A prophet does not only utter God's word without own consideration, but plays a part in communicating God's will. Ezekiel seems to have overstepped this responsibility by exaggerating the punishment for Tyre.[citation needed]
Ezekiel said Egypt would be made an uninhabited wasteland for forty years (Ezekiel 29:10-14), and Nebuchadrezzar would be allowed to plunder it (Ezekiel 29:19-20) as compensation for his earlier failure to plunder Tyre (see above). However, the armies of Pharaoh Amasis II defeated the Babylonians. History records that this Pharaoh (also known as Ahmose II) went on to enjoy a long and prosperous reign.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 17, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
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Klimmer, the bible also says it's OK to own slaves and that you should avoid touching menstruating women.
You good with both of those solidly based ideas?
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JLB
Trad climber
Smiths, AL
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Sep 17, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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websters, not my definition. argue with him.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 17, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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JLB- You're brand new to the Fire, 3 or 4 posts, so for awhile you had the newbie pass. But times change. You keep coming around, returning, and now your tone's changed, too. So FYI: I'm Ed's bulldog. And Weschrist's. And Norton's. And a few others. (Pate doesn't need one.) And science education's bulldog. Yeah, self-appointed, but that's okay, because the world and American culture need a few.
So from this point forward, gloves are off. Welcome.
Here's what I'm thinking right now: (1) JLB=Go-B. If not in MBA (mind behind avatar), then in ignorance, science illiteracy and lame reasoning. (2) Betting you're a god-fearing right-wing republican who shares a worldview with Christine O'Donnell.
Hey, the Fire's a tough crowd. In the end, you might find belief.net more accomodating. Just sayin.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 17, 2010 - 09:32pm PT
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JLB wrote:
websters, not my definition. argue with him.
so JLB, you're saying that you just read this stuff and don't think about it? you don't try to understand it? you just take it on authority, after all Mr. Webster's got a lot of authority....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 17, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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I appreciate your intelligence and passion on this subject, HFCS. And Ed? What can you say? Always an authoritative source of truly relevant information to the subject at hand (and he's such a nice guy).
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 17, 2010 - 10:35pm PT
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Norton- "Unfulfilled prophecies...according to the book of Joshua,[45] those tribes were not driven out."
Where exactly are you referring to? There is no chapter 45 in the book of Joshua that I am aware of.
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