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Lost A
Trad climber
Bumbling out West
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Agreed.
I took the Climber Self-Rescue course in Saratoga with REI and it SUCKED!! $40 for 2 useless hours. The instructor got confused and had to make a phone call in the middle of the class to get a reminder on the mule knot. I asked for a refund but only got a 50% store credit. I wouldn't trust those instructors with my worst enemy.
I took the course again through M.A.S. in Bear Valley and got an excellent class. I guess you get what you pay for - duh!
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Lost A
Trad climber
Bumbling out West
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Thanks Coz,
I guess I prefer a little sugar with my oatmeal.
Best,
Marty
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apogee
climber
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To my eye, Coz, this thread has been focused more on the cost structure of guide services, and how this plays out in the compensation of guides. I don't really recall the issue being oversimplified as whether Guide Service owners make more than Guides, though you (and Seth, to some degree) have fixated on that. Reducing the discussion to whether business owners make more than employees states the obvious, and doesn't do much more than distract the discussion. Guide service owners make more because it's their business, and in most cases, they have far more invested in the company in the way of time & money than the employees do. If someone really isn't happy with the fact that the business owner makes more than they do as an employee, they have every right to start their own. The 'oppression' tone that often accompanies the resentments around employer/guide pay differences strikes me as nothing more than victim mentality, and a lack of willingness to take responsibility for your own life and choices.
I don't know you personally- only by what you have posted here on ST- and like Marty, you strike me as pretty bitter and cynical- your explanation to the contrary really doesn't offset the impression many of your posts create. Your inclination to 'get Seth's back' on this is curious, given that he has done just fine communicating his views on his own, and the dialogue has remained productive and respectful- somehow, you seem to believe that Seth is being attacked, and that you need to 'back him up'. Odd. Whatever.
Anyway, you have every right to your position, as I do to mine. You don't seem able to see or acknowledge this, but our experiences and backgrounds are different, and therefore some of our views are, too. I'm more interested in discussing similarities and challenges, than getting into pissing matches with people. (Within the context of this thread, anyway- I can't say the same thing in the politi-tard threads...)
Thoughtful, rational discussion is in short supply on SuperTopo, while ad hominems and spray abound. Even less frequent are threads that discuss the profession of outdoor & adventure education- I've enjoyed this relatively rare opportunity, and hope it can stay pointed in a productive direction.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Springdale UT
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Yo Seth, I'd sell my Yoda in a heartbeat if someone made me a decent offer. I wanna get a CRV. Dude its finally raining here in Zion and its pretty nice to have the heat break if only for a hot minute.
I have been sitting around the apartment since it was my wifes birthday and we had a couple days off. Went to vegas and caught a cirque show and now I am trying to decide where I want to go to climb for fun.
If I take another nice long roadtrip it will complicate work options, since I would want to go during the busy season (summer). On the other hand I could go in the winter to South America. Decisions decisions...
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Seth,
Those are the facts of costs of doing business, take it or leave it bro. The fact is guide services, on average run on a roughly 20-45% total/wholistic profit margin (prior to any re-investment back into the company), depending on trip types and the specific guide services costs of doing business. So, out of every $1000.00 in revenue, the service profits roughly $300.00-$450.00/roughly 20-45% profit. Seth, you can break down/itemize it however you wish, insurance, marketing etc, no matter, but just no way around the facts of the bottom line reality of profit percentages I expressed above. I'm sure 20-45% profit sounds like a great percentage in the business world @ large, but on average, the revenues are very small in guide service world, (compared to the rest of the biz world) so it's not alot of money made, now matter how you slice it. 25-45% profit equates to exactly the #'s in terms of dollars, that I have been quoting on this forum. You can keep doubting, but lets stop talking about it, it seems to be going nowhere. If you ever start a guide service and start "employing" or "contracting" guides, let me know if you disagree with my #'s, I know you wont. And taxes are a bitch bro, especially for a small corporation. And as John/apogeee says, of course the owners of any business make more on a yearly basis, compared to what the employees, contractors, etc do, that is just a plain fact of the business world in this Country, nobody has stated otherwise on this forum.
Talk to ya soon.
P.S. Seth and Coz, I know exactly what to do with 40-60k per year: feed and cloth my 3 kids and wife and keep a roof over all ours heads. With 70-80k per year, maybe save a few thousand dollars per year toward kids college fund. Not exactly the Golden Parachute of visions!
And Coz, yeah this is basically campfire BS anyway, no hard feelings by me, Seth is a long time friend. I luv that guy! And I have enjoyed chatting with you on the phone several times over the course of the past 2 years as well!
Cheers,
Zeke
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jstan
climber
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Yesterday I got a quote at Home depot for two(2) items. It took a half hour and the Home Depot guy had to have performed at least 400 key strokes.
I once designed an operator interface for some radiometric test sets. The prior interface was clearly constructed with no consideration whatsoever for efficient use of the operator's time. This is still happening all over the place.
Why would anyone ignore opportunities like that to be a rock climbing guide?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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just a couple observations on the business end here.
i'm assuming that zeke isn't paying himself a salary. a lot of small businesses do that, which makes the profit margin smaller and the business, well, more businesslike. when i took some contractor training last year, they told us a profit margin into double digits was getting a little dangerous and it was a sign that you ought to be plowing some of it back into business growth. small businesses that enjoy too much profit too early often find themselves foundering unexpectedly.
zeke is following some pretty standard parameters for a small business and one can only applaud his openness here. i tried going into business for myself once--graphic arts/advertising/pr--and lost most of the investment--you could easily spend $9K on a computer system and software back then--but was happily hired fulltime by one of my customers. in retrospect, i think i should have undertaken a partnership. i was great at the creativity and production, but i needed someone to go out and drum up business fulltime. seth, that's not something that happens by itself. as old man wrigley said, it's the engine that pulls the train.
i think one of the best parameters for a business is employee ownership. it motivates people better, guarantees that profits are divvied equitably, and allows people to grow into the roles that they do best. you all face hard times together that way too--sad to see black diamond ending that arrangement.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2010 - 05:55pm PT
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i think one of the best parameters for a business is employee ownership. it motivates people better, guarantees that profits are divvied equitably, and allows people to grow into the roles that they do best. you all face hard times together that way too--sad to see black diamond ending that arrangement.
Da...... Tony thats the best idea for a guide service I have ever heard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Tony and Seth,
Ownership is a great motivator, I agree! And actually we are currently working on a quite similar arrangement, via our corporation preparing to enter into a contract which would issue shares of our corp (over a 2-3 year vesting period) to a specific guide who has been involved with our corporation, and who is willing and(seemingly able) to open another/new division of our corporation. Location of the new division, I can't disclose @ this time. Funny coincidence, Tony mentioned the idea. Its a great concept. I hope it works out well for our corp and the individual. We will see and I will report back to you both on developments.
Profit Disclosure:
On another note - I just looked up our corp profits for 2006 - 2008. Sierra Rock Climbing School, Inc posted averages of roughly a 16% profit per year, for those 3 years. I will fax Seth copies of the returns, if he still does not believe. So our corps profits #'s are actually a bit below the low end of those rough #'s that I posted previously. Our corp returns are filed by a 3rd party California licensed CPA.
Cheers,
Zeke
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 30, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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Well I got bored and dropped out of this clusterfuque 2 years ago and went up to Sawmill Bench to camp out with some friends, but then a couple days ago on a PCGI thread I posted the following rib;
I am all for donating to the Wounded Warrior Project, but shouldn't PCGI be doing a benefit for cripples who are pretending to be former soldiers?
and late last night I got some insulting emails from zeker.
Doesn't he know about the "Friday night posting while drunk thread"?
Way to go, Zeke. You guys just have to be spoilers.
Lotta class.
edit;
so the above quote is;
offensive, inaccurate, and damn near slanderous
a might touchy I'd say.
I worked on the curriculum for the AMGA for years. A decade earlier I guided a grade V FA.
So I felt a bit slighted at not being grandfathered, but I went through the process and jumped through the hoops and passed the exam and, guess what I'm a better guide and climber for it.
Then along come some others, perhaps one or two who also felt slighted but refused to go through the process.
So they go off and make a mutual backslapping club that act as spoilers that confuses land managers.
But I'm not permitted to quip about it?
You are coming off as a whiner.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 30, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
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Funny, I was just thinking about this thread yesterday afternoon....
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
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Hey Ron,
what you wrote was offensive, inaccurate, and damn near slanderous...........PCGI guides are thriving and quite busy working in the field!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 30, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
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Guided for seven years in the 70's...fun at the time. Good luck to anyone wanting to make a career of guiding in Estados Unidos...it's a tough, tough row to hoe.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Jun 30, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
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