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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 18, 2005 - 09:18pm PT
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Jody wrote: Dick Cheney was highly respected and liked by military personnel during his stint as Secretary of Defense.
The man had five deferments during Viet Nam. SOOOOO brave. Talk about "chickenhawk".
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 18, 2005 - 09:32pm PT
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Would not the moral of the troops be higher if they are in front? All leaders will have to be great fighting men to step in the shoes of being a leader.
President is called "Commander in Cheif" he leads.
Not possible anymore? Not enough good men anymore?
Sit in the back is no good ......
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2005 - 09:38pm PT
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2005 - 09:39pm PT
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Nov 18, 2005 - 09:41pm PT
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Jody : "It shows the liberal Democrats to be a bunch of lying hypocrites and exploiting the war in Iraq for political purposes. They were behind the war as strong or stronger than the Republicans"
you are sadly mistaken, and are a prime example of the flagwaving antiAmericans whose simple relex is to shoot at anything threatening your insecure self.
"and when Bush was running for reelection they all changed their tune "
another lame stretch.
Clinton and the Democrats would never have started a preemptive war like this based on such Misinformation and Disinformation.
Don't try to blame it on them. This country has a very hawkish political trap in stressful times and everyone from politician to the media tends to not speak up for the full truth, lest they be mislabeled. Not to mention that many voted "to authorize war if necessary," believing this would allow Bush a position of strength. Instead of various other ways to achieve regime change, Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Wolfie/Pearle had already made up their mind that a simple tidy war would work and we would be welcomed as liberators with no planning needed.
Oh wait, there was lots of backroom planning. Cheney & his buddies plotting how to divide up the oil fields of Iraq. Remember how this was going to pay for the entire war cost?
"The Demoncrats' diatribes against Bush are so despicable and ridiculous that they border on treason for giving encouragement to the enemy"
facist McCarthyism
"If you want to quietly voice disagreement, that is one thing, but the constant undermining of Bush and the troops in Iraq by calling it a mistake and a war concocted by Bush is pathetic. "
egoist tripe
"Bush was everybody's hero(90% approval rating after 9/11 and pretty close to that at the beginning of the Iraq war)"
self deception
The polls were that people only supported the IRAQ war IF we sold the UN or MANY other countries on FULLY participating, despite the public having been deceived by a man they trusted - Colin Powell.
"til the Demoncrats realized they have no agenda of their own "
this is partly true.
"so they decided to try and bring down Bush. Pretty typical of a party that has no core values"
Actually being against most things Bush tries to do is a good start for core values.
Had Gore or Kerry been elected, they would not accomplished a lot, due to Republ Congress. Similar stalemate as Clinton, forcing more reasonable Compromise - & a better country.
"they can't run on their own record "
Clinton's record is about 1 million times better for this country than Bush/Delay (who have a record as impressive as Marie Antionette)
"P.S. The Republicans were elected to change things, but sadly, they have fallen prey to political correctness. Unless they do something about immigration, finally decide to pull their heads out and drill for our OWN oil(including ANWR and off-shore), and quit spending money like drunken sailors, they will be soundly defeated in '06 and '08 and will richly deserve what they get. On the war issue however, they are right and the Demoncrats are wrong. "
There is no Value in drilling ANWR if the point is to fuel SUV single occupant commuters.
"Also, lets hold posthumous hearings on why LBJ staged the whole Gulf of Tonkin episode to get us into a war where 65,000+ Americans died. "
Fine with me, altho I believe people like MacFarland have already discussed the truth frankly with the American public,
unlike the present oilogopoly.
"Bush said immediately after 9/11 that if you are not for us, then you are against us."
The great uniter giving his words their true meaning.
This type of thinking lost him the support of many other countries.
"Hussein praised the terorist attack, had paid families of homicide bombers,"
none of which directly attacked us.
" had attacked sovereign countries, threatened the stability in the middle east and threatened to totally disrupt the oil market(like it or not tree-huggers, the world's economy depends on oil), etc, etc. Good enough reason for me to take him out. If you folks can't see that he was a threat, you are blind."
Iraq was a minor blip of a threat to us. Tiny.
Not worth the $300 billion we have sunk on it plus lives plus countless wounded whose care will cost the VA another $150 billion. Destroyed our active & reserve recruiting. Gaining us a lot of ill will in the world, due to being unilateral, based on lies & corruption, & incredibly poorly planned despite clear warnings. Is the oil market more stable now in 2005 than it was in 2002?
"I think Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria should be next.
Except they shouldn't screw around like they have in Iraq with a politically correct war. "
When are you going to enlist?
Or are you just signing up for chickenhawk duty?
You have a very simple minded view of the world.
About as wise as those who continue to try to justify the Vietnam war.
Those countries are definitely a problem. War usually causes more problems than it solves. The negatives are ignored until it's too late. Forcing democracy (it's sometimes debatable whether we have one here) is almost impossible when the majority of a country wants an Islamic state. look at Egypt & Pakistan.
Or are you just planning to kill everyone?
"we are in war, they cvan save the backbiting and slnader until our troops are out of harms way...then have at it. "
Wrong again. War is all the more reason to question, not less.
A point was made that the bickering about going to war is irrelevant since it's past history. This is only partly true. The lessons learned might be very useful in the future.
We still need a clear exit stategy & plan, not more permanent occupation bases built in Iraq. And hopefully true Americans will not make the same voting mistake again.
...All your quotes from Dems from 1998-2002 are irrelevant. By March 2003 the UN inspectors were finding there wasn't much Weapons of Minor destruction, and there was no significant threat. Even if some Democrats didn't know that, Cheney/Bush should have. Instead he RUSHED into war.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-02-un-wmd_x.htm
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=6263
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1010-02.htm
http://www.acronym.org.uk/dd/dd77/77iraq.htm
Basically Bush learned from 1991 and 2001 that it is ALWAYS best to rush into war and there is no other way.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2005 - 09:51pm PT
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Dial up is a bitch!
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2005 - 10:06pm PT
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Online Suicide!
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 18, 2005 - 10:23pm PT
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Lovely shots, Juan. :-)
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 18, 2005 - 10:24pm PT
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Scientology? I'd take the bridge.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 18, 2005 - 10:35pm PT
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Looks like Juan doesn't want to play anymore in this thread.
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Wholly Mammoth
Social climber
The question is: where do I want to be?
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Nov 19, 2005 - 12:00am PT
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Be careful the NPS doesn't catch you jumping... they might fine your dead, cold body $200 for violating their bridge policy!
W.M.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Nov 19, 2005 - 12:51pm PT
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Jody,
This goes right to the heart of the question on whether or not to go to war.
And no, the question is not skewed one way or another.
I could see your point if it makes you uncomfortable, actually challenging your reasons for going to war. Not on theoretical angles of what the country should or should not do.
What do you truly believe? What will you stand up for? What will you put your life on the line for when it comes to taking innocent life, purposely or as collateral damage?
This is the real question. What does it take for you to want to be involved in the death of another human being? This is what every person on the planet needs to ask themselves when they are looking at themselves in the mirror in the morning.
Are you willing to put your life on the line for the actions you want this country's military to cary out that you believe in that are pre-emptive and bordering heavily on aggression?
If I felt that there was sufficient threat to my freedom you bet I'd join what ever form of service I could at that time in my life. But this is a war I do not believe in.
Obviously you feel there is a major threat, since you support the war in Iraq.
I wonder what the innocents you speak of are thinking about right now.
While we sit there and banter back and forth on our computers and are warm, fed and relatively happy, many of those innocents are thinking about how they will eat, where they will live, and what they will do for revenge.
I guess history is doomed to repeat itself. Cycle, re-cycle, cycle, re-cycle.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 19, 2005 - 05:04pm PT
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Jody wrote: Doug, I still don't see what me actually fighting in the war has to do with my REASONS for supporting the war.
As a follower of Jesus Christ it seems out of line that you would support any type of violent behavior. War/violence in not in the doctorine of Jesus Christ. Plain and Simple!
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Nov 19, 2005 - 05:18pm PT
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"Perhaps it would be better, however in a society that places great value in Paris Hilton, Snoop Dog and other mediocre talents the loss of a key decision maker to a random bullet or bomb is just to great. "
Um...Fatty I don't think you should lump Snoop in with Paris Hilton unless you actually know what you are talking about.
Jody it has EVERYTHING to do with the reasons, because conservatives seem to have set the theshold of 'good enough' pretty damn low. It's almost to the point of "Why did we invade Iraq....because it was there!" The political wing of the executive branch is currently full of people who supported the Viet Nam war in prinicple, but not enough to actually go themselves. It is much easier to send people you don't know to die or risk death on a shaky ideal than it is to send your loved ones or go yourself. You probably wouldn't start a climb that held a low likelihood of survival unless you had a pretty good reason.
My objections now, as before, are that the decision to go was made well before any intelligence was actually looked at. The only decision made was what intelligence to use to justify the premade decision. That is and will never be a valid deciison making process to go to war.
I thought that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. I supported the threat of force to get inspectors back in the country, it probably should have been done a long time ago. I would have supported a process where we built a coalition with Europe and others with the ultimate goal of removing Saddam from power, by force if necessary, for generally being an evil dude. It could have been an opporunity to build relationships in the world instead of destroy them.
Instead Bush and Co. made the decision to go to war in March, 2003 well before that date. They crammed as much justification time into the preceding year as they could, but they knew they were going to go unless something went truly sour. I guess the largest public demonstrations in history don't count as 'sour' for them. Maybe if the stock market had crashed they would have paid attention.
They desperately wanted there to be a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda. There isn't, there wasn't and they went with it anyway. It's insulting. It's dishonest. And why it isn't obvious to you is baffling.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Nov 19, 2005 - 05:22pm PT
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"War/violence in not in the doctorine of Jesus Christ. Plain and Simple! "
Bob there are passages in the Bible (as in the Koran) that can be used to justify pretty much any behavior. That's why you'll see Christians using passages to justify the murder of Muslims as they quote passages of the Koran to prove that Muslims are evil, vile people who just want to kill Christians. Remember, these are people who think that our ancestors rode dinosaurs to church. Logic is not universal.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2005 - 06:16pm PT
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Bump
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Nov 19, 2005 - 10:14pm PT
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Jody,
I have a personal issue with every person who wants others to die for an aggressive cause that results in innocents death they do not personally want to die for.
You just seem to be one of the more vocal ones on this subject.
As for diversion, call it what you want but it still goes right to where one stands on your reasoning for wanting to go to war.
Bust the liberal, democrat, what ever on me. Call me what ever.
Still does not change the fact I have challenged your logic head on as to your reasoning for why we should be in a war in Iraq.
And you can not deal with it.
Once again....
Are you willing to put your life on the line for the actions you want this country's military to cary out that you believe in that are pre-emptive and bordering heavily on aggression?
What does it take for you to want to be involved in the death of another human being?
If you can not at least answer this you really need to join the military and get to Iraq soon so you can get a taste of death first hand.
You are right police work any emergency work is risky, but it does not involve the active taking of another life in the name of conquest.
By definition when you are at war you are trying to kill people. In emergency work you are trying to help people. Two different things.
If I was to take your logic train, we could extend it to underwater welders, electrical line men, who ever risks their life for any thing.
You give examples, I give examples.
You counter, I counter.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2005 - 01:11am PT
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The pro-war quotes by the liberals can be explained by examining a few factors.
1. They got the intelligence AFTER it was cherry picked by the administration and conflicting intel was suppressed. After all, that's what this whole Plame scandal is about.
2. The Dems and the GOP are both wimps. After 9-11, folks who questions Bush and the war on terror have been labeled "with the terrorists" and "America Haters." In that environment, it's been easy to railroad politicians into supporting military action. Congress didn't read the patriot act before they passed it. They also didn't review the intel closely either. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld said they were certain and we/they trusted them. The authorization to use force was under the conditon that all else would be tried and force would be a last resort.
But in the end, the inspectors didn't find anything, but Bush invaded anyway. Then it was too late for anybody to say no, pull the plug. There was not immediate danger from Saddam but Bush couldn't wait any longer he said. Bull!
The Downing Street Memo shows Bush was determined to invade from the start and they they knew the evidence was slim from the start. The PNAC reports from before Bush was even elected telegraphed their plan. 9-11 was merely an excuse that drummed up the political will for a war that had nothing to do with those attacks.
The Fraudulent Iraq war is the crime of the century and, because of that Bush and Cheney deserve not only impreachment but prison, just like Saddam deserved it for invading Kuwait. At least he was invading a country that used to be part of Iraq and was conceivably messing with Iraqi oil by sideways drilling.
And the idea that Saddam was keen to attack that US is pure bunk. He knew better than to attack the US and risk being vaporized. They had WMDs during the first Gulf war and didn't use them, even when sending SCUDs to Israel. Wake up.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2005 - 02:41am PT
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Time will tell Jodster. I'd get off the sinking ship if I were you. The truth will have a hard time coming out while the crooks are in office, just as the bogus Gulf of Tonkin incident wasn't exposed until later.
This isn't a partisan thing. Democrats had a huge hand in the Vietnam debacle, and Clinton dropped some bombs in Iraq himself.
I think it's great that Saddam is in jail. If all the leaders that initiated bogus military adventures went to jail after being found out, the world would be a better place. You can throw Clinton in the same cell as Bush if an investigation proves it.
Someday history will have a lot more info. My feeling is that Bush is going down as the worst president in history, hands down.
Buy hey, I admit to being wrong about a lot of things. Time will tell.
The only real question is whether Bush and crew are total idiots and incompetants, or criminals, or both. If I were to search the statements that Bush made before the war, and what I, stupid, uninformed me, made before the war, I come out way, way ahead in accuracy. What's with that?
I'm sick of corrupt politics. The fact that Clinton could get impeached (but not quite convicted) over lying about a blowjob (with the "jury" voting on party lines) is an indictment of our system. The only thing protecting Bush is the GOP majority and the fact that nobody will make him say anything under oath, because Bush's crimes are 2000 times worse and getting worse all the time.
Peace
karl
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Nov 20, 2005 - 03:03pm PT
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Jody that has to be the most dishonest and hollow rebuttal in this whole thread. No basis? The evidence of 'cherry-picking' is widely known and available. Maybe you just haven't been paying attention. You can't expect to be taken seriously when you so eagerly look critically at criticism of the Administration and fail to ever apply the same test to the Administration itself.
Clinton wasn't indicted for the land deal he was under investigation for, so I guess there was no scandal there either. I'm pretty sure nobody in the White House was indicted in Watergate for the actual crime, so I guess that was much ado about nothing.
Forget Wilson, forget his wife. The documents that Bush based his State of the Union speech on were laughable forgeries and he went and said what he was going to say anyway. All of the evidence that there were ties between Saddam and Al Qaeda was shaky at best, and most of the time was a combination of old, unverifiable and from highly questionable sources. That might be enough to prompt further investigation or maybe low level anti-Saddam activity, but Bush used it as a huge leverage point for selling the war. Saddam has WMD's (which most of the world agreed on though we were all wrong) AND ties to Al Qaeda to whom he could give these WMD's to at any moment and use to savage the free world with. That was how the war was sold and why they should have been strung up in 2004 for it. The 'liberal' media was to busy helping the Bushies make Kerry look like a war criminal to get all that straight though I guess.
The cherry picking evidence was clear, and so was their intent to invade. You could see very clearly that they weren't investigating anything, they were looking for justification. When you are trying to fact find you are looking at all the intel, when you are looking for justification you cherry pick.
If you can't see it Jody, it is most certainly because you don't WANT to see it. There is even less evidence that what you say about Wilson/Plame is true, yet you are ready and primed to believe and push it as widely accepted fact instead of the pulp of the right-wing spin-machine that it is.
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