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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Kev wrote
Karl,
Nice, you weren't even there - WTF...Read the whole thread I was very nice to the caretaker and he was a complete dick including threatening to get a gun. I was leaving for shit's sake. I was nice. I was in a area IN MULTIPLE GUIDE BOOKS, there were NO signs of fences, etc. The situation was totally uncalled for. I thing you just don't like me for some reason - prolly since I know bluey - maybe? LOL.
Not what I'm saying Kev. I'm saying that Rox trespassed your thread (maybe he had a "Right" to post" and you were the one to jump into "Dick" mode, not him. Given your demand for diplomacy, best to practice it yourself.
Not doubting the caretaker was rude. There are millions of rude people in the world.
As for Kofi's remark, just admit that Rox rubs you the wrong way. His posts were on-topic, gave a valuable perspective on how surveys and local power politics work, and were worth considering in how to deal with the situation, whether you agree or not.
If you are going to diss on a guy, best to just be honest and resent the feeling of arrogance or "Know it All-ness" in the guy's writing. I find it rational and well spoken, even if I don't agree and think California Kicks ass on all other states. I'm not threatened.
Peace
Karl
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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So it sounds like the lower canyon, and scott's bluff are in fact on private property due to an updated survey.
Stuff happens, what are you going to do? The caretaker guy sounds like he blew the situation out of proportion. You don't use a threat like that unless you feel threatened.
Bruce Ivey, whom the Chief is dealing with, is a good man, well known and active in the local community. While a duck club member, he is also instrumental in keeping beautiful Mt. Whitney Fish Hatchery open to the public.
In all my dealings with him for news stories, he has been honest, forthright and enjoyable to talk to.
Private property is a rare thing in Inyo County, less than 3% of the land is private. On the one hand this means there is plenty of public land for folks to play on, on the other hand, people around here can be touchy about their private property.
If you can negotiate some climber access that's great, but we as a group can't be willful trespassers.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Also- Rox brings up a good point. Does this thread and internet discussion help or hurt?
If outsiders and land managers/owners read it maybe it hurts. On the other hand, it helps spread the word that the lower cliffs are on private property, something that was not widely known before.
Either way, I guess it's too late. The cat is out of the proverbial bag.
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gonamok
Trad climber
Bite my azz
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The best way to drag something out is to respond to criticism. Rojox, your willingness to take the low road at the drop of a hat says more than all of your long winded and self important posts combined. Principles are about what we do, not what we say.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Bottom line, everyone, please chill out on FF for a while
Well, that crag sees very few visits even in the winter, when it's climbable, so now that it's summer, and it's going to be 110 degrees there for the next 4-5 months, you can figure that nobody will be going there for a while.
Bottom line, it's a tiny little cliff right next to a major highway that's only climbable a few months a year, and it's on private property...why bother.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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nobody really cares--let's be honest about this.
if you like to fight, why not file for an injunction to prevent duck hunting within birdshot of u.s. 395?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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LOL
Somebody named Bird wants to ban bird shooting.
One can hardly blame him.
I sympathize with the land owner.
Trespassers are A holes, especially the ones who say stuff like "but I didn't hurt anything" as if somehow that makes it OK.
If I had NO TRESPASSING signs torn down three times in a year I wouldn't be threatening to get a gun; those trespassers would already be doing a muzzle inspection.
The people who admitted to deliberately trespassing are like communists, and look how great that system turned out.
They don't do much for climber PR either.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Actually Fossil Falls is a pretty nice little spot to climb. Especially when you get blown out of the southern Sierra by a big winter storm. For some reason FF always seems to have this patch of blue sky overhead, and being in a hole in the ground the wind passes over, not through.
All you nay sayers, can any one of you say you have ticked every route there? I don't mean Scott's Bluff either, just the main areas of the falls? That would include 40-45 routes from 5.easy to many 11's and a couple good 12's.
All Rick and I plan to do is find out where the boundaries really are, and to determine which if any of the climbs in the falls basin proper are on Mr. Ivey's land. If need be we'd like to have a meeting with Mr. Ivey to explore the situation further. If we succeed y'all can thank us for our trouble. If not that'll be the end of it, but I am glad I did those climbs when I did. It was a lot of fun. There was no indication we were trespassing, those signs were more than 100 yards to the south and we respected them.
It amazes me that any climber would dismiss a well intentioned effort to maintain access to a nice obscure local climbing area.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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I've been watching this thread for a while.
Just from the pure liability stand point the owner has no compelling reason to allow climbers onto his property. If he's smart, he won't. All's it will take is one claim against his insurance, they pay out, then his insurance premiums will sky rocket.
Insurance companies are not in business to pay money, they are in business to collect it. Period. If you believe anything else, you need to step away from your crack pipe. If you don't have a crack habit and still believe this, than I urge you to start a crack habit immediately. Because your clearly delusional.
High risk activities and the policies that go along with them are very specific. I'll bet he has one for hunting. I'll bet he pays a pretty penny for it. Since this property appears to be a hunting club, then he likely pays for the policy out of his premiums for the privilege of hunting and being a member there.
Since climbers won't be paying him one thin dime, and he'd have to (if he's smart) add to his policy to cover his ass, he has no compelling reason to do so.
My take, leave the poor guy alone. Go find some other place to climb rather than turning this into a some stupid pipe dream over some worthless little crag.
Stay off his property. You don't belong there.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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People addicted to crack should go to Indian Creek anyway.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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And we wonder why land managers hate us so much...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Go find some other place to climb rather than turning this into a some stupid pipe dream over some worthless little crag.
Thanks for the positive vibes.
In case you can't read, I said that if the climbs turn out to be on Mr. Ivey's land and he does not want to accomodate climbers, that'll be the end of it. I also said that neither I or any of my friends ever knowingly trespassed, the signs were down canyon about as far as Hemingway Butress is from the edge of your little club.
Again, I can't fathom why a climber would diss a well intentioned rational effort to determine the status of a nice local spot? "Leave the poor guy alone?" No one is bothering him. In fact it sounds like Rick had a nice chat with him.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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First off, this wasn't directed at you.
Secondly, climbers seem to have an overly developed sense of entitlement. My god, this place is located just off 395, there's the entire east side to climb in.
Just leave the guy alone. He bought the property fair and square.
Why should climbers be so special as to gain access? Why not other user groups?
Considering the lack of respect random climbers have shown me over the past five years living where I do, I can't think of one good reason to support this.
I'm always nice when I start out, they have been the ones to escalate things.
What you and others fail to understand is that I have seen it from both sides. You folks have not.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I can't think of one good reason to support this.
Unlike your situation in Joshua Tree, there is a lack of clarity regarding the FF area.
For more than 20 years, visitors to FF would drive in on a BLM road to a BLM parking area from where a BLM trail and signs would direct them to the falls. Another trail would lead them to the lower area below the main falls. All of the climbs except Scotts Bluff and Lethal Weapon are upstream, north east of here.
Any "No Trespassing" signs were south, down the canyon from here. Scott's bluff is beyond where the signs were and I always took it to be on ranch property. It was always a bit vague where the exact line was, but there was never any indication that the falls themselves or the area immediately below them was anything other than BLM land. Any visitor would feel certain they were on a BLM managed site.
Now it appears the private land may include much of the falls area proper, but this has not been asserted before. The public records regarding the recent transfer of the land and previous sales are vague. Simply put, it will be in everyone's interest - especially Mr. Ivey's - to get this cleared up.
Personally I would like to see climbing at FF continue and I hope that is the outcome, but I have never advocated trespassing on private land to be a solution. I'm done talking about this here at least until there is something concrete to discuss.
edit: What you and others fail to understand is that I have seen it from both sides. You folks have not.
Actually I deal with trespassers on a regular basis. Most of them are less well intentioned than the average climber...
Cheers,
Kris
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Thanks kris - the chief - and anyone working on this.I have spent many a day hiking exploring from 1975 - early 1990's (great indian hunting grounds & wintering place) never had a problem . last year i noticed a complete change. the bottom of the falls should not be PP. but it is now so any help opening up this great place is a good thing. in the mean time stay off.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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to hell with all the self absorbed rock climbers, what the f*#k did all the poor ducks ever do to anyone?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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I have no problems with pulling survey records, parcel maps etc. I just think that taking this any farther than it's private property is stupid.
As far as access issues go, you'd all be well advised to "choose your battles wisely".
In my opinion, this is a poor choice to pursue access issues.
Leave the owner alone.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"to hell with all the self absorbed rock climbers, what the f*#k did all the poor ducks ever do to anyone?"
Taste yummy?
Do you have any ambitions of trying Climber a l'Orange?
Way to gamey for my tastes.
Quack bitch...
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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I would agree with you chief, the attitude is what has sealed it with me. And I defy anyone to tell me that I haven't worked on behalf of climbers rights since I spent nearly 4 years on the board of directors with the friends of josh.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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just a note to piton ron, who obviously doesn't get around much.
in such a place as jolly old england, whose common law tradition we inherit and where most of the countryside is owned by peers of the king, there is a very strong tradition of public access to land, specifically for "walkers", the english version of cross-country hikers. there are signs on many a gate reminding people to close them so's the livestock doesn't get out. england is a small country with many people, and there's recognition of the need to be close to the land.
fossil falls/little lake is a remarkable gem in the desert. i'll bet the owners don't hunt ducks there more than a handful of days a year. in all my life, i've never heard of duck hunting being allowed at that proximity to a major highway. america has a strong tradition of eminent doman and established access in such matters, but don't expect an access fund lawyer to get involved.
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