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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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where's the website? I must have missed it up thread somewheres??
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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Munge,
Did you actually have the patience to read all this drivel?
kev
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
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no, that's why i think I missed the URL.
heh
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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Still waiting to hear about Wes's bolting experience...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 12, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
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Why be a fuking prick about it? You FUNDAMENTALISTS are all the same with this fuking attitude. You are NOT doing the climbing world ANY favors.
Umm Wes you're telling other people to not bE pricks by being a prick. Heed your own advice. and look up the definition of choss.
Nordy chopping is the term but you don't chop bolts you pull them. Otherwise you are doing more damage than the bolters. If you can't pull the bolts and leave no metal in the rock leave it for someone who knows what they are doing. Wes communication style Leaves a lot to be desired but he's right talk to the guys that did the bolting first.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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Apr 12, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
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Nice looking "choss pile"
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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No Wes I don't want to nor do I need to compare c*#k sizes. Thanks you so much for starting out with the attitude of a dick with me though. I asked you the questions because I wanted to know your background with such things before I choose the words I wished to impart on you. You know get a feel for your audience.
Anyhow, glad to see that you've at least dabbled, albiet I am troubled by power drilled rap bolting, but hey I don't screw fat chicks but some guys are into that.
First off unless you are only a sport climber the vast majority of those many routes you climb were 'put up' or 'developed' or 'whatever BS word one wants to use' by us fundamentalists, so think about that next time you use that phrase.
It's pretty sad to see people on the taco defending a bolted crack. It seems to me that the FAist has brought the rock down to his level rather than rising to the challange. A lot of us here feel that that's pretty pathetic. What ever happened to the days when people had a little pride and that was respected. Reguardless of if the bolts were put in on the FA of the chimney or not (I'd be pretty suprised if that chimney hadn't been climbed before), the bolters did their deed in the worst possible style. How can you even question that? I'm not here to get sucked in to all the childish bs. The bolts should be removed, and removed properly. I'm sure they will be but I felt I had to bring up the above points to you.
Spray on Tacoheads!
kev
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
East Bay, CA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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The bolters probably placed bets beforehand on the level of douchary their bolting would produce on the taco. I hope one of 'em bet really high.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
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Wes,
I read the OP and knew this would churn up a sh#t storm. After rereading the OP I think that N-weegie has the right attitude. But hey if you think they should be removed and now the issue is one of semantics I've got no issue here. I do however seriously doubt that people who would bolt a crack have the skill to properly remove em, I doubt these guys are into proper bolt replacement, etc. I could be wrong but just saying what I think...Did the madbolters every post up in the thread?
You wrote "You are disturbed by my rap bolting? How else do you bolt an overhanging face with nothing but slopers without rapping or putting in a bolt ladder? I'm asking seriously."
I'm not disturbed by your rap bolting as much as I am of it in general, but to answer your question, I'd say don't bolt it and save it for someone who can power through it. Just because you couldn't do it doesn't mean that there isn't someone out there who can't. Not everything has to be a climb or a lead.
Geeze, I'm outta here - have fun Tacoheads!!!!
the kev
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
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Wes,
The original poster ASKS for help in the OP quoted below (boldface made by me for emphasis)
i volunteer my crowbar wielding hand. though i could use some education on the proper processes to minimize scarring, of which i promise to invest wisely and liberally in the future.
And as far as your comment about bolting fast. Hook it then.
Bachar-Yerian is run for just that reason. Not everything has to be climbed on lead. Strong people can and do power through to eventually find stances to bolt from. Regardless my point is that unless everything needs to be bolted and have bolts every 5 feet then rap bolting is unnecessary. If you believe that all rock that is climbable should be then at least youre logically consistent. If you don't believe that then leave it for someone else. I really don't think your out there tapping in tons of bolts so this is really more of a philosophical conversation. Also never hurts to have a 1/4" button head just for those hair raising situations.
kev
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 12, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
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Sometimes I think bolting has become akin to a dog peeing on a rock to mark his territory.
I've bolted, I've chopped, and I've been chopped. In my older age I don't get quite so wrapped up in it all.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 12, 2010 - 06:55pm PT
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I would guess that the party that bolted this route didn't bolt it to "bring it down to their level" they bolted it because they thought it was a good route that nobody did because you'd need big bros to protect it. They probably did it out of community service. This reminds me of the route growing up, you may or may not agree with the methods and bolts but I think it's cool to give someone the benefit of the doubt, i.e. assume they are trying to create a good route for future parties rather than assume they are doing things the easy way for their own gratification.
Some climbs can't be bolted on lead (you can't hook overhanging slopers) at least not without drilling a bolt ladder and removing every other bolt or more (which is worse than rap bolting IMO style/ethics wise). You may be a traditionalist and say you should not bolt them then, but then why shold you care, you wouldn't be interested in that type of climb (overhanging sport climb) anyway so what does it matter to you, you won't be on that climb so allow others to enjoy the type of climbing they appreciate.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 12, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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Didn't Chuck Pratt do the first ascent of Twilight Zone with no pro?
Not- no bolts, I mean no pro...period.
I'm not advocating climbing with no pro, but they could have rapped and bolted, but they didn't.
Talk about climbing the crack at a fair level...sheeesh!
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 13, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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Survival: it sometimes seems that Chuck Pratt was his own wide crack pro.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2010 - 01:08am PT
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"... but they could have rapped and bolted, but they didn't."
I highly doubt it.
Back in those days it really never crossed peoples minds like now.
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Rankin
climber
North Carolina
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Apr 13, 2010 - 08:30am PT
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Chop them. Make it a clean job and try to restore the route to its natural state. Use duct tape to pad the wall to prevent scarring.
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OR
Trad climber
VT
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Apr 13, 2010 - 11:39am PT
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Wow, just read the whole thread and my head hurts. Is it true that the bolters are completely unanaware of the ramifications of bolting this line ? If that is indeed is the case I think a very civil discourse should take place between the climbing comminity and the bolters before any chopping takes place. This is not to educate or demand they play by long established ethics but to make them aware of the thought process' and logic of protecting free climbs by the pioneers of our sport. As a noob in Berkeley and in the Valley 20 years ago I was lucky to hang and work with some people who where some of those pioneers and were happy to share their knowledge on the subject. I was fascinated and felt the evolution of pro, bolt or gear, was such a major part in climbing history. People are saying the bolters are good people and I'm sure they are, but to look at that line and know it is an easy lead on trad gear and to bolt it anyway?????? I dont f*#king get that!! If this is the case then have a coversation then remove the bolts. K, blog/rant over.
What is the link to their website??????? cant seem to find it.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 13, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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The ASCA site is a great resource for details on pulling and replacing bolts.
If the bolts are Rawl 5-piece, you're in luck. Just unscrew the puppies and patch. However, if the bolts are those new-fangled wedge anchors, good luck pulling them--they take 1,000s of pounds of force to pull (which I think is a good thing!). Not like the old split-shafts that the ASCA site addresses with tuning forks.
I've had some experience chopping wedge anchors (ones that I had placed), and I found it pretty simple to just remove the hanger, then work the stud back and forth with a hammer until the stud weakened and broke. In most cases, the stud broke flush with the rock, and you could barely notice the work. Duct tape might help shield the rock while you work.
I don't know if there are better ways. Post up if you know.
Cheers...
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Apr 13, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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I've gotten wedge bolts out by a pry-hammer-pry-hammer routine.
Basically back the nut off, get a prybar behind the hanger, then pry out a tad, smack it back in, repeat. The back and forth will eventually bust the cone piece and the entire thing comes out. Works pretty well on 3/8", IME. Tried it on a 1/2" once and had to cut the stud and pound it flush.
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