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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 27, 2005 - 02:24pm PT
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Fatty I could take you more seriously if you weren't so abhorrently obsessed with bombing people.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Oct 27, 2005 - 03:13pm PT
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fratso 1st wrote-
"You are correct, the only way to change intransigent regimes (secular dictators/oil crazed sheiks/Islamic nutjob Mullahs) is by force."
and then-
"This is the US's first attempt at social and political change in that region."
so you confess that you are claiming some sort of diffinative and absolute knowledge, based only upon your favorite movie, and not any valid historical evidence, or any other example where a remotely similar situation has been improved in any way by the use of military force, and where the results are actually observable.
thank you.
now doesn't it feel good to be honest, for once?
now that we have (finally) made this break through, let's discuss the impending implosion of the neo-conservative movement, which undoubtedly will follow on the heels of the soon-to-be-announced treason-gate indictments of several members of the bush administration, and fitzgerald's new grand jury which will look into the manufactured sales-job these corrupt and disgraced administration officials sold to congress and the american people in order to advance their untried and untested idealogical theories in the middle east.
on 2nd thought, maybe i'll continue to stay away from ST, and just laugh knowingly at you and your kind, as your tidy little political world collapses all around you...
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 27, 2005 - 04:57pm PT
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Fatty- Don't you see how that wil simply beget more violence? that just gives them even better reasons to come after us. Which gives you better reasons to go after them. Thing is that they are way more willing to sacrifice to hurt us then we are to hurt them, and violence like that simply radicalizes the moderates. At the *very* least you could be supporting measures to ween ourselves off of oil while you do all this, but you are so detached from he situation that you can easily write off the people you are killing to avoid having to change anything here.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 27, 2005 - 04:59pm PT
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fattrad,
Please read up on the history of Iran, paying particular attention to the history of the last shah.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Oct 27, 2005 - 05:17pm PT
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What the British did was to get their asses handed to them, by a group of out-numbered, out-gunned, and highly motivated locals, who united in their hatred of being occupied. They left (and abandoned their effort to control the natural resources in the area) after the local peoples demonstrated they would simply make the human costs of occupation unacceptable for the British. Anyone w/ the slightest amount of regional historical knowledge knows that to be true.
"don't know your past, don't know your future"
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10b4me
Trad climber
On that V2 problem at the Happies
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Oct 27, 2005 - 05:36pm PT
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Yeah, I'm a little depressed today about not getting the Fed. job. :(, Now it's either the Stephens seat or Yosemite Superintendent(witnin the realm of possibility).
lol!!
fattrad, don't you think you should start lower down the ladder?
I've heard there is an opening for a janitor in the C4 restroom.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Oct 27, 2005 - 05:39pm PT
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i always think it's funny how the right wing "patriots" so easily turn on the one country that backed us up in the 1st place and made the dream of freedom in america a possibility. if not for the french we'd all be watching soccer and sipping tea. i'd guess you think the statue of liberty is just a frivolous waste of taxpayer money...
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Hootervillian
climber
Rob Field, OB
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Oct 27, 2005 - 05:41pm PT
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I surrender...
"I wonder if she's wearing anything under there, you know... she's french" Dr. Peter Venkman
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 27, 2005 - 08:25pm PT
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"I'm all for energy conservation and development of alternative fuel sources, it's up to the smart guys at Lawerence Livermore Lab (Ed H.) to get us a viable solar alternative. "
Ahh...always easier to pass the buck. In the menatime its also easier to kill a bunch of people. Why so invested in blowing up the Mid-East? Just miss the good-ol' days with Russia and these guys don't have nukes yet so its more fun? And we ask why they hate us....
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 27, 2005 - 08:40pm PT
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fattrad, It sure didn't take you long to forget about th French troops in Aghanistan, did it?
After all, we rushed to France's aid when she was invaded by the Nazis, didn't we?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 28, 2005 - 01:41am PT
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fattrad,
I know now what your problem is,and why you have the viewpoint that you do. It is something you have in common with W.
You're ignorant. Not stupid, not at all, but you are ignorant of history. You have no historical background, and thus do not realize how actions in the past are having repercussions now.
You don't know the history of the middle east, nor our involvement in that history.
You want to know why we lost in Iraq? Read "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom." Read that and replace 'Turk' with 'American', and you will see that our tactics, and the Arab's tactics have been used before. With success on the Arab side. The mistakes that the Turks made were the same mistakes we are making.
There were people in the Pentagon that know this, but they were fired by your hero.
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
Good luck, amigo.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2005 - 11:45am PT
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I have a very strong background in middle east history, it was a requirement to join the AIPAC board of directors. Unlike the Turks or Brittish my associates have told GWB that we cannot remain in the middle east forever as occupiers, but we can stay for thirty years to influence a generation.
There's no way the american public will stand for this unless we stop having soldiers killed and maimed everyday. We've *never* done it so far. So far, the pace is not slowing. We'll be out of there in five years.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 28, 2005 - 12:55pm PT
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fattrad,
You need to expand on your middle eastern history. We can learn a lot from how the Ottomans handled their occupation of Arabia. And what happened to those Turks in the end.
Can you find an example of an occupying force that was successful in subduing Afganistan?
I can think of only one example of the United States occupying territory and winning total control of that area. And it took a policy of genocide for us to control our part of North America.
But then you do advocate genocide in Arabia.
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Hootervillian
climber
Truman Pkwy, KCMO
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Oct 28, 2005 - 01:57pm PT
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"...a fleet of armed UAV's."
FT is right about that; Sharon Diplomacy-
"The explosion was the result of a rocket attack that targeted a car in the area, he said, adding that an unmanned aircraft appeared to have fired at least one rocket at a car which was travelling through the area.
The rocket destroyed the car, scattering body parts as it found its targets, al-Dahduh said.
The attack came as Palestinians were leaving mosques after evening prayers, witnesses told AP, and at least six people were taken to hospital."
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BA800528-586E-4042-8D22-5D275E028080.htm
"Five of the dead are thought to be bystanders with no connection to the fighters, security sources said."
Ed. that 'wall' is starting to make more sense...
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:00pm PT
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Really Fatty? The Iranian Prez called for Israel to be wiped off the map. That's bad, but where is the formal declaration for war?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 28, 2005 - 04:46pm PT
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And if you listen to the President of Venezuela, the U.S. would already be in there. It doesn't mean much. Iran knows that wiping out Israel would mean the end of their nice little Islamic state. It's a bluff.
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Trav
climber
LA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 05:41pm PT
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um, i have some questions? Israel (a nation, unlike Iran, that has/does illegally bomb and occupy foreign lands) threatens Iran with air strikes all the time. i dont understand the difference? and what about when we aggressively threatened the nation of Iraq? it seems crazy to think this is any different except that Iran doesn't occupy another country and never has, Iran has never initiated a war of aggression, and Iran is meeting their obligations as a signatory of the NPT (which Israel doesn't recognize in their strategy of "strategic ambiguity"). Shimon has the gall to talk about "paragraph 1 of the UN charter, blah blah" hunh? since when did Israel care about the UN? i'm confused. don't we threaten Iran all the time?
http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.htm
edit.. one more question. why doesn't the US media report his full response which is, "Westerners are free to comment, but their reactions are invalid."?
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Trav
climber
LA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 05:59pm PT
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what about when they bomb syria, lebanon, and iraq (was it called Osiraq?)? who are they bombing in "response" for homicide bombings? cuz somehow they kill at least 4 times as many civilians as get killed in israel. they are either really bad shots, have really bad intelligence, or it seems like they target civilians as you say, in "response". I guess that;s what they mean when they say 'exact a price from the palestinian people". thanks, im starting to understand.
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