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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Look at it this way, Ray.
There are the reported sightings and encounters.
Then there are probably 10 times that which go unreported.
But I am convinced there are many many more undetected encounters where the human was never aware of anything, as in Donini's case ... and I am sure as with many of the other well travelled climbers on this forum.
Once the proof is sewn up, and laid out, and that will be next year, people will come out of the woodwork with reports. The stigma will be gone.
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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healyje
I agree, the Sasquatch question is outlandish and unbelievable, and it feels that way even when I am having an encounter. I am not a scientist so I am free to interpret my experiences in a non empirical fashion. I know the invisibility factor is real. I have videoed the glowing eye signature a 100 feet in front of me, only to disappear and then have it's shadow being cast from behind me 5 feet away in an instant. To me that is a transcenscion of geometric space.
The crux of the issue, is that the essence of Sasquatch existence is unknown science, yet to be documented.
In the meanwhile there are thousands of footprints, casted and or filmed world wide. There has been DNA samples which test out to be almost human but not quite. The Patterson Gimlin film from '67 has not been dis-proven.
Look guys this would not be such a persistent mystery if there wasn't something going on of which we have absolutely no understanding.
To imply modern science today has all the answers, and therefore renders the Bigfoot question moot, is naive and essentially means you are saying there will be no scientific advancement in the future. And that is totally wrong.
Time to dismantle the Large Hadron Collider before anymore time and money is wasted on research into the model of the universe. Everything is known already ....
It's actually the Sasquatch phenomena itself, which represents a challenge that could spur the advancement of science.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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If you guys read Messner's book, you'll see that he thinks the physical yeti is a species of Himalayan bear which has become entangled with lots of legend. Personally, I agree. Whether or not there is also a spiritual yeti, a kind of demonic figure, is a matter of debate. Even the Sherpas, especially the modern educated ones, are of divided opinion on that.
Rolwaling Valley, west of the Everest region where I spent time, is famous for them. I wandered
alone in the woods a lot there and never encountered anything unusual. My Sherpa friends joked that was because yeti don't like the smell of western women, only Sherpa women.
What I do know is that something attacked the ox of a friend of mine one night when I was not in the village and the two got into a terrific struggle while the family was praying and banging on pots and pans. It was pitch dark, no electricity or flashlights, and they were too afraid to go out. The next morning they found that their ox had been lifted over a 3 ft. wall and drug 1/4 of a mile down a path where they found it with it's stomach ripped open and a few of the choice organs taken out and presumably eaten.The tracks left behind looked a lot like a human but then so do bear tracks when the bear places his hind feet inside the front tracks, elongating them.
No yeti have been spotted in Rolwaling for quite a long time and I hypothesize that is because the Chinese have killed off so many bear and other wildlife on their side of the border. I believe yeti sporadically appeared in Nepal when they crossed over the passes from Tibet, as they were most frequently seen headed downhill during a snowstorm. Since they are nocturnal, they hardly are seen in fact.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Once the proof is sewn up
Look, biologists spend their whole lives trying to discover evidence of a new species. When they do their discoveries are accepted on the basis of concrete, incontrovertible evidence - live or dead specimens, DNA samples tested and verified by multiple labs by expert geneticists, skeletal remains, scat, or one walking down mainstreet Estacada at 5pm Friday night. Short of that, track molds, bad videos, and worse audio recordings are never going to cut it - particularly not videos of 'glowing eye signature[s]'. I mean, exactly what does that represent in terms of its relationship to a bigfoot? Has someone made the case that bigfoots exhibit a GES? On what basis was that assertion made, and on what evidence?
And invisibility? Take metamaterials - they exhibit a form of 'invisibilty' at some freqencies, but they also possess physical properties which create the effect. No organism on Earth is capable of 'invisibility' based on physical properties. Are you asserting a bigfoot covered with hair, versus a visible-light metamaterial, can become invisible via some other means?
The inherent problem here is lack of even a shred of credible, incontrovertible, and verifiable evidence. I don't expect that to change.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Oh boy, I've had similar encounters and experiences in the wild, all I could explain without ever thinking of a bigfoot.
Peple are not necessarily smarter than animals, they just don't talk or have opposable thumbs to build things.
(My dog would look at my hands when he needed me to use them for something, like opening up a can of dog food or brushing him. Sometimes he'd even touch my hand with his nose and then go to what he wanted. Pretty funny. We had little problem communicating.)
Your pets ALWAYS know when you are coming home, when you are leaving, when you are happy, sad, mad, etc. No mystery there. Most people can do the same thing if they are quiet enough and use their head.
ANYTIME I've been in my normal day to day, and that ends and all is quiet with no electronic things around, I hear humming in my head, constantly. It's supposed to be the sound of the cosmos. Used to bug me, now it means all is OK.
Bears make all kinds of vocalizations, huffing, grunting, growling, hissing like a cat (scary)bawling like a calf, woofing, mumbling, you name it, they can talk.
Ditto for Ravens. (Ever heard them make that popping sound?)
Night birds make the freakiest noises, Heron's in particular sound like banshees. Makes my hair stand up on end.
Screech owl fledglings are a hoot. Bitchin their parents out to no end.
I've heard song birds have dreams and sing in the middle of the night. I think it was a Cassins finch on one occasion, but the song was garbled up, like a person talking in their sleep. Wonderous.
Ever heard rabbits fight? I broke up a bloody battle between two male cottontails once, the sounds they were making led me to investigate, I bout laughed out loud when I saw these too locked in mortal combat, screeching, growling, panting and seriously trying to kill each other.
I was on my mare, and without her to wade into them, I wouldn't have had the nerve to interfere and she wasn't too keen on it either! Then she realized they were "just bunnies", looked down at them, pinned her ears and lowered her head to bite or nip because they weren't stopping with her hovering over them. They saw us at the last minute and split up just in time. There was blood and fur all over! Fond memory.
Oh, bear make NO noise unless they are panicked and running. Big soft feet as opposed to hard hooves, Deer are the ones that break sticks and birds scratching in the undergrowth make the most noise of all.
I've had bear walk right past me and I never heard a thing. Not to mention lay down next to me at night, smell my face and generally scare the sh#t out of me. (Duck Lake, I rolled over in my sleep up against something large, warm and furry that then just disappeared.)
I had a bear come up to my campfire and sit and share and I never heard him. Bout fell outta my chair when I saw him across the fire, like a ghost in the night. Scared him too, but he didn't leave until I told him too. (Lundy Canyon)
I'm not sayin I don't believe in Bigfoot and Yeti, just that everything I've read here can be explained by normal wild animals/birds just doing their thing.
I couldn't get the OP's youtube videos to load. Hum.
edited to add for Jan;
Cats are inordinately strong for their size. Watched my 8 pound housecat drag a large jackrabbit down a mile long driveway once. The thing was a fair bit bigger than him, might have weighed the same though.
He was dragging it like a lion between his legs, stopping to rest every so often, he'd just lay down on top of it and pant. Then, when he got it to he barn, he proceeded to jump/climb up to the top of the hay pile with it to eat it. That's when I finally interjected, praised the heck out of him, and took the rabbit away. Leopards drag gazelle into trees.
Wouldn't be no thing for a snow leopard to drag a good sized livestock over a wall.
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Jan, I know Messner thinks its a kind of bear,
what kind?
Read some of the documents that
are now online - there were a number of
sitings before his book came out - have they
identified the species if the "bear"?
Earleir healyje mentioned a comment I
made about electrical current, it was just
an example of something that we know,
that we cannot see - too funny!
Meaning, there's things that have
power, that we can't see,
all around us...hilarious healye -
you made a huge assumption off
a simple example.
Re-read my posts, I never said
I know this thing exists - how could I?
Never seen one.
Is Yeti a proven mystery now?
Its interesting that all, as far as I know but,
I do have an open mind :-)
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Yes I know about meta materials invisibility. The next progression would be to bend the path of a photon in a fashion similar to gravitational lensing, but at a micro, not solar level, using an energy field as opposed to a meta material. I am sure that leading edge photonics research is working on photon control using some sort of electro-magetic system. In fact photonics is one of the hottest research areas going right now I hear.
Okay moving on to one of my experiences, during one of these weird invisible encounters in 2007 what happened is I can hear heavy footsteps in the gravel, very near, inside a five foot radius of me, in my campsite. I see nothing yet can hear something.
September 2009 hiking in a provincial park with my native friend, for a good 4 hours we saw nothing, expect for a few moments I saw what I can only describe as a shadow, very broad and very tall shadow, easily 12 foot tall, in front of me moving away very quickly. During this 4 hour period we were subject to rocks, small ones tossed near us but not at us. We see nothing and hear no movement in the underbrush, but we do get the wet dog smell on occasion. So an unseen Sasquatch is paralleling us, moving thru the bush without disturbing so much as a twig. Other people are in the area and none of this rock throwing is happening to them.
So there is invisibility with geometric continuity in the first instance cited, and invisibility without geometric continuity in the second instance. what ever it is is either passing through underbrush like it is not there or changing locations with out covering any distance in between rock throws. Ya I don't get it nor have an explanation for it.
This does get to the point were just relaying my experiences and conjectures are totally futile. It is unbelievable, even to me. Yet I could take anyone of you with me to these places and sh#t would happen.
I would be the very least likely person to get a visual in both cases because I am also holding a video camera in my hands. It's clear the very last thing Sasquatch want is to be photographed or shot on video.
so ...
Is this Sasquatch invisibility achieved using an energy field, shaped in a cylinder which bends light around the creature or allows it to pass thru undisturbed or its an effect achieved by harnessing another dimension I have no idea other than I think whatever the mechanism, there is possibly an electrical component to the process. Flesh and blood creatures generating a serious electrical charge is already documented in the eletric eel.
Obviously Bigfoot is not just another mammal. If it was, the proof would have been in 200 years ago. This is exactly the point I am making and what I find so intriguing about the whole situation. We are not dealing with JUST another mammal .... yet this creature is real and does exist sufficiently to be observed by many people. But thwarts us through the absence of any major empirical evidence. Its so intriguing for those two reasons, especially if you are one whom has had a sighting or encounter. For everyone else it's utter nonsense.
I am not claiming I have proved anything either, I am just being honest with you about giving it a shot as an amateur, who foolishly thought I'd get the money shot.
Jan, the eviscerated cattle or deer, yes I have heard of that many times before. Didn't take the whole body or eat the meat we would consider essential food. To me that says these creatures can subsist on a whole lot less food than we think they need. Often just the liver is taken.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"I see nothing yet can hear something."
"I saw what I can only describe as a shadow"
"We see nothing and hear no movement in the underbrush, but we do get the wet dog smell on occasion."
These statements recount various experiences, none of which provide enough data to support the following conclusion:
"So an unseen Sasquatch is paralleling us..."
Why not an unseen lowland Gorilla? Or an unseen human? Or an unseen Alien fresh out of a wormhole? On what basis could you possible support the conclusion above? None that I can see.
"I could take anyone of you with me to these places and sh#t would happen."
Sh#t might happen, but from the sound of it, none of it would support a conclusion bigfoot is involved.
"It's clear the very last thing Sasquatch want is to be photographed or shot on video."
Tooth Fairies are equally videophobic in most childrens' bedrooms.
"Is this Sasquatch invisibility achieved using..."
Wait! None of the above statements or experiences support the existence of sasquatch or invisibility let alone a 'sasquatch invisibility'.
"Obviously Bigfoot is not just another mammal."
"...yet this creature is real and does exist."
No, nothing you presented represents even vaguely credible evidence suggesting, let alone proving, bigfoot exists. What your statements throughout this post do support is the conclusion all this 'evidence' is being presented to validate your very strong belief that bigfoot exists. None of it represents credible data that would support any of the conclusions you're leaping to - but then you're leaping to the conclusions you started with, not to ones you are trying to arrive at.
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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so, what we need to know is has the "bear" species
that Messner saw dissapear, been identified?
He is on record as saying it was 2 meters tall.
seems a logical question...
hahaha!
Too funny.
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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the glowing eye signature thing explained ...
Okay so if you are invisible, the problem is you cannot see because no light is reaching your eyes, if it did your eyes would be visible to an outside observer. What is needed is one or two holes in your "cylinder of invisibility" to permit light to reach your eyes thus enabling you to see.
In creating this breach in the Sasquatches optical defense system what the bigfoot experiencer sees is two glowing eye shaped objects. It appears the eyes are emmitting light. This is not the case, it is my contention the glow is a signature of the electrical nature of the mechanism responsible for the invisibility. Photons penetrate the protected space, but we see "fabric" of the "sheild". Or is this glowing breach a hole in the barrier which divides dimensions ?
I dont think its well known, this "glowing eyes" of Bigfoot phenomena but within the BF research world its somewhat common knowledge.
Hence the glowing eye signature term I used earlier. See the below linked video I shot using GEN III night vision of this GES phenomena. Personally I was shocked when I found out the glowing eyes had no body visible. We had seen the glowing eyes several times before at night, but never assumed there was invisibility in play as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3h6tGAocl8
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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remember, if its a mystery,
its a threat.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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From the video: "Soon we became surronded by numerous Sasquatch."
This is exactly the kind of statement that destroys credibility. After watching the video 'evidence' presented in that link (if undoctored), the only conclusion one could ever make is that you observed some sort of visual phenomena involving spots of visible light. No other conclusions are supportable from what I saw; certainly not the conclusion presented in the statement above. The leap to Sasquatch Eyes (btw, could be a great band name) is breathlessly grandiose and comparable in scale to the claims of religous miracles.
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Well I forgot to mention the tracks we also found, the broken and twisted tree signs. The whooping and other sounds heard in the same area characteristic of Sasquatch.
And when I get home I will post the bigfoot picture my friend took in May of this year at this very same area where the rock throwing occured. I don not have it on this laptop here with me now
But Points well taken, it is possible there are other entities involved of which even less is known which like to throw rocks at some people. Even if you did document the Sasquatch transitioning to invisible on video, well that would not be well recieved as evidence either.
I have no proof, only experiences
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Remember, when there's been no evidence of a bigfoot it could mean it's not a mystery, but that it just doesn't exist.
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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The reality we can percieve may not be the only one.
sometimes it doesn't exist and sometimes it does.
hence the descriptor called the "sometime place"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"...the tracks we also found, the broken and twisted tree signs. The whooping and other sounds heard in the same area characteristic of Sasquatch"
Wait! How can anything be "characteristic of Sasquatch" when no Sasquatch has ever been available for study to determine what might be charateristic of one. It's this continual cart-before-the-horse logic and leaping backwards conclusions which is the credibility problem.
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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that argument only would be valid if you thought I was the only one whom experienced Sasquatch.
There are plenty of people out there to independently supply similar information and experiences continent wide regarding these characteristics
Proof is a requirement for those whom are not expereincers, the experiencer is not held back from further experiences because there is a lack of empirical proof
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"The reality we can percieve may not be the only one."
True enough, there maybe numerous 'rolled up' dimensions we can't perceive. But, until we figure out how to verify that they exist or not, all we can do is present conjecture no matter how much we want to believe those additional dimensions exist. It's the same with bigfoot; until incontrovertible evidence is presented for its existence, all you guys would be way better served by not presenting beliefs as forgone conclusions.
"There are plenty of people out there to independently supply similar information and experiences... "
I have no doubt of that. The problem, however, is that none of the information or experiences support the conclusion that any of you "experienced Sasquatch". What it does support is that a bunch of you who believe in Sasquatch experienced something you can't explain. The twin facts of unexplainable phenomena and a belief in Sasquatch do not, unfortunately, by themselves support the leap to one's existence.
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Looks like Eric Shipton took a killer photo
of the Yeti footprint.
google - eric shipton yeti
sure don't look like a bear print :-)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Yep, it's a photo of a footprint. But without more data that's really all you can say about it.
Come on! The idea that a viable population of bipedal mammals bigger than us could somehow elude us for the entire twentieth century is ridiculous. The idea a viable population of bipedal mammals bigger than us could generate and project a non-physical invisibility field is ludicrous. And the idea a viable population of bipedal mammals bigger than us - invisible or not - didn't leave pounds or tons of incontrovertible DNA evidence verifiable across continents over the past century simply defies basic logic and common sense.
Look, I'm not suggesting you should stop believing in Sasquatch, but what I am suggesting is that you stop confusing belief with fact. Belief requires faith; facts require evidence. Where all you bigfoot/ghost/ufo guys continually go wrong and loose credibility is when you fail to avoid contaminating your evidence with your faith.
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