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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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Hey Steve, I apologize if in some way I was unclear...no worries, I have not made any bolting mistakes! The 5-10 bolts I have placed have all been bomber, using Fixe SS wedge bolts and hangers. I just had a theoretical concern that far in the future, after we are long gone, they might not be able to be removed and replaced. I'm happy to hear that it is indeed possible to remove them! I'll take a rain check for now, perhaps you can come back from the grave with your water-cooled diamond core drill and help, when the time comes. It's very nice of you to offer...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:54am PT
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If these are what you are talking about in terms of water-cooled, diamond core bits then it looks like such rigs can be had and adapted to SDS drills for about $150 AU bucks. Must be some similar available state-side. The one pictured below is a 12mm. Guessing it all makes a hell of a mess.
http://www.hoskindiamond.com.au/category102_1.htm
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:30am PT
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Since this thread is full of useful information has anyone done any testing on the different thread types, especially for wedge anchors? As I understand it, rolled threads are the best because they don't introduce any potential stress risers that are more common with cut threads.
Bueler? Any one?
Bruce
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:40am PT
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Healyje- those are the sort of thing, but we use shorter ones imported from California (actually made in Ukraine). You need the diamond/bronze sintered ones (which your example looks like) not the cheapo electroplated ones to get any sort of life. We use a different water spray to save water, not pressure feed up the middle.
Not really that messy, just boring!
bhilden- rolled threads are around 25% stronger than machined ones. They dont have machining marks to produce stress risers which cause fatigue problems, the material is hardened (stainless cold work-hardens) and even better they are far more resistant to SCC as the bottom of the root is rounded and reduces the stress concentration under tension.
Hard to believe any major manufacturer is actually machining threads though when you see the speed a Landis or similar machine works at!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 24, 2009 - 09:56am PT
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I'll kick this in as well on the rolled vs cut/machined thread discussion. Although it is a minor point, as I understand it both are 18-8 stainless (18 percent chromium/8 percent nickle which can be slight variations of that theme) in the 304/A2 config: but the cut thread product stuff has a slight bit more sulfur in it to increase the machinability, and thus is slightly less weather/corrosion resistant in the long term.
A small point but one more nail in the coffin if you have a choice. As far as strength goes, as long as they are ICC rated product (think UIAA rated except for the building industry) they will be plenty strong enough. Each Mfg has published specs and strengths for each product which must be and are met for their individual product, or design engineers would be going crazy every time their buildings collapsed. Think of it. If you buy a product form a Mfg and they publish a spec which says 4000 lbs shear in such and such concrete, weather they roll or cut the threads means noting to that figure or to you. The fact is that machined threads are better as Jim says above, but the product you are getting should meet that published spec as a Minimum no matter if they have elves with hammers and chisels making the product in the back of a 1962 Chevy Impala.
More important than cut or rolled is to make SURE that your bolts are ICC rated. Buying product Mfg by a major mfg (and not a hardware store bin filled with Chinese generics) with published specs and ICC ratings is the way to get that. If you buy a Red Head or Powers product, for example, you are getting a lot of behind the scenes engineering work to back up what you actually think you should be getting, and if they say the strength figure is 4000 lbs shear/tensile blah blah, it will be, and you don't have to worry if it's rolled or cut, it WILL hit that strength figure.
JimT - where can one get the drill you posted there? Some of the 3/8 steels around here are rusting to crap, and although still real sick strong, they are in need of replacement.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:07am PT
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I placed this anchor. few things to note. Ice climb that gets done maby 10 times a year. low impact was a big consideration. The metelious rap hangers are one of the lowest visual impact bolted rap station available INMOP.
If you place these hangers too far apart they tourque inward when loaded and turn into spinners. They width of my hand is 8.5" so these are about 7" apart. Just about perfect for this type of hanger. The rock is pretty decent and those lines that you see are not real cracks. Nothing that you could get a #1 Kb or even a rurp into. In short I would and have bet my life on this anchor.
I can see how it would look from the photo that the right most bolt is near a crack. That is a line that formd when the rock was melted a billion or so years ago? its all smooth an flowing looking like its bonded realy well. the bolts are at least 7" from the top of the block. the reason they are not placed farther down and left is so that the ropes will pull.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:11am PT
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I would too Tradman. I've never seen these "too close of anchor" Mighty hiker brings up ever fail yet anywhere or ever heard of it till he mentioned it. Anywhere: even when the bolts are 1/4 x 1-1/4 long. I would think that a 7" bolt 7" apart or any config even violating the commonly seen mfg spec of 10 x diameter apart ( so roughly 4" minimum for a 3/8" bolt) and being way too close together would be significantly stronger than any config of 1/4 x 1-1/4 no matter what your spacing on the 1/4" bolts.
I didn't know that having them too far apart increases the oscillation and wear on the sport hangers like Jim posted above. I wonder if that's what happened to the worn through Fixe sport hanger posted above that had to be replaced in 2 years. Sandstone sucks for that kind of wear, especially on carabiners or alumunum rap rings, but with the rings you can rotate and spread the wear -although you still see big grooves in them.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:25am PT
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The metelious rap hangers are quite suseptable to getting tourqued inward, grinding away at the surface stone and eventualy becoming spinners. The closer they are together the less likly this happens. The upside is there is so much metal there thAT THEY Will NOT wear through like the rings. I do prefer the Fixe/Ramur rings because they are easier to clip more stuff into and don't seem to tourque the bolts as much. I guess I should spray paint them stone color. Not shure why I didn't just paint them all the day I bought them?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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you keep discussing the roumar rings, I've never even seen one so where the heck are you buying them? (hint: link)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:17am PT
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The Roumer Rings look just like the fixe rings. A single SS ring on an hanger that orients the ring Verticly. 27kn rateing. I got a bunch @ a local gear shop for $4.65 ea Super closeout deal.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Couchmaster-good point about ICC, naturally over here we have the ETAīs but I didnīt know what you have in the states.
I too had a load of 10mm Chinese knock-offs I bought once, they just get the 25kN test but that is a long way off a good quality one at 38kn, dumped them out to a guy who makes garden frames, pergolas and such like.
The drills are these http://www.ukam.com/webcatalog_drills_ordering.htm in Valencia.Cal. We make our own spray set-up with a garden sprayer and some Gardena irrigation bits, there are some pictures on my website www.bolt-products.com
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
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they just get the 25kN test but that is a long way off a good quality one at 38kn,
Well I can absolutly 1,000% gaurentee you that your rope will break a whole lot sooner than 25kn so what is your point??
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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The point, I think, is that is statistically a sh#t load off of what they should have been rated or what a quality Mfg would consistently produce. That Jim has his stuff together and apparently tested some to learn of this deviation and spare you from learning it the hard way when you fell onto it in no way means that YOU will be so lucky just fishing them out of some random unmarked bin and getting yours to go to 25kn. Maybe YOU grab the ones that only go to 13Kn or 5kn or they go up to 40kn...who knows or can say? Some Chinese stuff is awesome, some is trash - certainly good enough for a garden bin, but it's the "who knows" part you should be concerned with when you stick all of your brothers with a bill which might come due for one of them.
Jim - thanks for the link! Do you use that ultra thin core bit which is selling for almost a hundred dollars?
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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So Jim, how exactly do you do the water spray? I'm guessing you just drip it on from a water bottle, but I'd love to hear exactly how you do it. Thanks!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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Thanks, tradman, couchmaster. I just 'borrowed' the belay-bolt photo in an attempt to illustrate the concern. That is, solely going by appearances (and not having the context), the bolts in the photo looked as though they might have been placed too close together, too close to a crack, or both. It's the sort of setup that's often seen. I don't mean to suggest that particular belay was in any way suspect.
I've seen bolts lying in the scree below a cliff. That is, the bolt or bolts (and chains, etc) in a detached block. Once at Vantage - a complete belay. (Not the Positive Vibrations pillar one.) Individual bolts in blocks on several occasions, including Vantage and Skaha. And once a bolt in a block that wiggled but was still attached. And not all weaknesses are visible, or found with tapping or drilling.
It seems to me that if you're going to make the effort to place bolts, a little thought about location may pay dividends, and requires no additional effort. Healthy spacing of belay bolts, having regard to rock type, quality and observable features, makes sense.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
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tradmanclimbs,
> this is a link to the actual page with the anchors. i have been useing # 148 but i like the look of #147 with the oval ring.
The oval ring could be nicer for low angle rock. The round ring is better for distributing wear of lowering on a sport route. The double (round) ring hanger seems to solve both problems.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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Clint, when i first looked at that oval ring i thought that you could clip more stuff into it. then after i had posted i realized that it would probobly not load as nicely especialy witha bunch of stuff clipped in one ring. The doubble rings are nice but usually pricy. like i said i got my paws on a bunch of the single round rings at a good price and super happy with them. not putting up spurt routs though. Trad cragging on some and multi pitch trad on others.
used 2 sets on this nice 3 pitch job i put up a few weeks ago. This is P2 of Isabella 5.10a
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
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Tradmanclimbs- well youīre an ice climber from from Vermont so I guess you know better!
The law in Europe says all rock anchors sold for use by climbers MUST withstand 25kN.
We like to be sure so we do quality control testing. We donīt earn any more money from it, we could just buy rubbish in and mark it with some spurious rating like the Chinese do but we do sleep better nights doing it our way:~)
Jim
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