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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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"1) Individuals who are certain they experience implausible occurrences and are not compelled by proof to the contrary are considered delusional and/or mentally ill."
what proof to the contrary? No one has disproved my experiences. No one has disproved that Jesus died and came back to life. So what proof are you talking about?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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weschrist you think well. The Voltaire quote says it all.
Christians and Muslims must be confronted with the illogic of their beliefs. Absolutist belief systems predicated on faith stand in the way of human progress.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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How true. I think that puts a cap on it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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"NO evidence of ANYONE being brought back to life after 3 days."
There is evidence. You just see it as a fairy tale. Just because you see it this way, does not make your opinion anymore valid then mine. I live my life based on my opinion, as you live yours. In my opinion, as long as you are not hurting others, then you should be allowed to continue. I know that much evil has been done in the name of God and this evil should be stopped. This does not mean that God is evil. It means that at times mans understanding of God can be based on evil.
You think that I am delusional for believing that Jesus arose from the dead, or that God exist. I think that you are delusional for not believing. Thankfully neither of us can force the other into some form of treatment as we both appear to subscribe to the notion that as long as we are not hurting others, then we should be left to live as we want.
As for your argument that not enough people have come back to life to make this provable as a true event. There was a time that no one could prove that atoms existed, yet they still did. Theories about them were scoffed at.
Should I give up my belief about God and the veracity of what Jesus taught because you scoff? Nope.... my belief isn't based on the fact that millions of others believe. Most Christians do not believe as I do, as evidenced by how many here argue with me. My belief is based on repeatable experience. If you want this same experience, then you can have, though it is not easily come by. If you don't, then don't. That is your choice and I respect that choice.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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There's just as much evidence that Orpheus went into Hades and returned; there's just as much evidence that Dionysus was born from the thigh of Zeus. There are eyewitness accounts of Apollo walking on the earth. There are lots of folks whose faith assures them that Muhammad was an inspired prophet and they should wear a bomb into a crowded restaurant and kill people for him. Remember it was FAITH in Allah that brought down the World Trade Center. Absolute faith is an absolute disaster.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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roehl
Why don't you just take your so called faith that God doesn't exist and be done with it.
You're not saying anything what so ever except spouting a lot of useless mental speculations.
You don't know, so why even waste your breath.
Oh because you want everyone else to BELIEVE and have FAITH in you .....
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
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Braun
I said before no one can know if god does or does not exist. But we can be reasonably sure it's foolish to build a convoluted belief system based on something we can never know!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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roehl -- "I said before no one can know if god does or does not exist."
That .... is pure bullsh'it. But. It holds true only for you.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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Prove the existence of god. You might even win a prize. There's plenty of room here. Do it.
Your so sure of yourself. Talk about BS.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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"as long as we are not hurting others, then we should be left to live as we want."
I think a lot of the animosity against religion is that some practitioners do not let other live their lives as they want.
Some want to make sure other people's kids' recite "under God" in public classrooms.
Some want to nullify same-sex marriages that have already taken place.
Some want religous beliefs required for holding public office.
Some want to scare people with a made up concept of Hell into following their beliefs.
The thing that bothers me most about some religous people is that they have substituted faith and being told what is right and wrong for reason and figuring out what is right and wrong.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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roehl
I can do it easy. But it is not the proper place on this forum and it's not done by just talking and writing stupid arguments here.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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Good then why not write a smart argument. Philosophers and theologians have been trying for centuries; nobody has ever succeeded.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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A childs laughter, a cool breeze, Yosemite...all proof enough for me.
"To each is own." I find the belief in a higher power more believable than evolution.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
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A child's death, hurricane Katrina, south central L.A. What do these prove?
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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Not interested in a debate on the topic. Just felt like chiming in (east LA is worse, never seems to get the same "reputation" as south central).
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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Thousands of years ago, nobody could prove Gamma rays existed, but they so.
Thousands of years ago, the state of science was very primitive.
People had a different mindset in ancient history. Their interpretations of the world of Spirit is bound to be expressed in terms appropriate to the culture (and even politics of the time)
Any student of science and physiology should be aware the world is not as we see it, God or no God. The entire planet is so diffuse that in a black hole it would collapse into a space smaller than a baseball.
The world in a Baseball!!
Jump to philosophy and prove to me that anything exists outside your own Being. Every bit of data you have about the world is processed through your mind. You really can't prove everything is not just a persistent dream. In a dream, you imagine all these other people (that you created) that apparently have their own lives and some of them might even try to do you harm (funny, it's our dream and yet bad things can happen)
Who is to say the world isn't your dream, or the dream of God? If so, how would the characters in a dream go about proving they are being dreamed up?
take a minute to think about it.
Who is to say the world isn't your dream, or the dream of God? If so, how would the characters in a dream go about proving they are being dreamed up?
Personally, I encourage anyone to question dogma and investigate the spiritual traditions in their respective religions that emphasize contemplative disciplines to experience truth within first hand
Peace
karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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"A child's death, hurricane Katrina, south central L.A. What do these prove? "
The world is a very dynamic place.
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asioux
Trad climber
Rancho Cucamonga
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Jan 16, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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Christ died on the cross for your sins. No one comes to the father except through me (Christ) Read John 3:16 Accept Christ as your savior follow God commandments read Gods word everyday and pray, the bible is our owners manuel to eternal life in heaven. Remember God loves everybody! AF
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Joyce's "proof" we are more than dreams and dreamers.....
* Ineluctable modality of the visible: at least that if no more, thought
through my eyes. Signatures of all things I am here to read, seaspawn and
seawrack, the nearing tide, that rusty boot. Snotgreen, bluesilver, rust:
coloured signs. Limits of the diaphane. But he adds: in bodies. Then he was
aware of them bodies before of them coloured. How? By knocking his
sconce against them, sure. Go easy. Bald he was and a millionaire, maestro
di color che sanno. Limit of the diaphane in. Why in? Diaphane,
adiaphane. If you can put your five fingers through it it is a gate, if not a
door. Shut your eyes and see.
Stephen closed his eyes to hear his boots crush crackling wrack and
shells. You are walking through it howsomever. I am, a stride at a time. A
very short space of time through very short times of space. Five, six: the
Nacheinander. Exactly: and that is the ineluctable modality of the audible.
Open your eyes. No. Jesus! If I fell over a cliff that beetles o'er his base, fell
through the Nebeneinander ineluctably! I am getting on nicely in the dark.
My ash sword hangs at my side. Tap with it: they do. My two feet in his
boots are at the ends of his legs, nebeneinander. Sounds solid: made by the
mallet of Los demiurgos. Am I walking into eternity along Sandymount
strand? Crush, crack, crick, crick. Wild sea money. Dominie Deasy kens
them a'.
Won't you come to Sandymount,
Madeline the mare?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
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Thanks Skip.
Gosh Paul, that 'proof' makes the prose of the old testament seems pretty accessible by comparison. I'm not convinced!
Peace
Karl
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