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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Jan 16, 2008 - 06:20am PT
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"We both agreed that the water erosion on this part of the big stone after 25 years would easily hide small enhanced hook placements"
Can you give a single example of this happening on any route on granite? Not one missing "enhancement",but a series of them,just two or three on a slab.Small face holds are OK.Has to be in rock good enough to withstand a hook though.
If I understand this correctly you are saying these guys were not up to snuff,climbed a route with a lot of enhancements,no one repeated it for eons and they were so lucky,or in with the BIG GUY that their handiwork was eroded away to appear as if they climbed something bold?Nine pitches worth,is that correct?
Joe,it's a trap,all the hook moves have washed away....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 16, 2008 - 06:50am PT
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Tom, I'm sure that's why Pete was TR'ing it and Ammon thought is was such a puzzler. But then, you don't use all the exact same foot and handholds down to the millimeter when you do a free second ascent, do you?. Well neither would I and who would want to be that closely associated a story as tainted as 'A Million [Chiseled] Little Pieces' anyway? I know, I'll just move an inch this way or an inch that way while considering all the fixed gear to be on a convenient, but 'adjacent' line, and call it an FA. Maybe something like 'Wiffs of Steal', 'Whips of Steel', or given the water erasure maybe 'Wisps of Steel'. Hell, good thing Ammon didn't think of it first or he would have just zoomed up it robbing me of the FA! And him hanging about looking for the FA hook placements! What a chump!
Hopefully my narcolepsy won't be a serious impediment to the big push...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:09am PT
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Steve, do you mean to tell me that all their venomous attack on you (which you continue to respond to) all originates from this passage? I seem to recall one of the WOS guys quoting you as saying it was a "bolt ladder" in print, which doesn't seem the case.
Methinks there's a bit of this in Madbolter1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_complex
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:51am PT
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Deucie, Steve's skiing today.
The erosion idea was proposed by Christian and helps explain, besides the 'million puzzle piece' concept, and their size, why the drill marks aren't easily spotted. I haven't observed the water runoff pattern on the slab, but over 25 years, weathering and lichen could hide small drill marks. I don't think the primary focus of people that have gone up there was to search for drill marks, it was to get up the climb. Or was it? Since Steve was right there, it was easy to swing over and check it out. It would be interesting to hear what Thaw has to say.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 16, 2008 - 10:53am PT
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" I seem to recall one of the WOS guys quoting you as saying it was a "bolt ladder" in print, which doesn't seem the case."
Your recollection is faulty. Richard quoted the exact language from the book, word for word, and even gave the page number.
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 16, 2008 - 11:00am PT
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Boy, I luv this scandal. Keeps me spirits way uup!
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Jan 16, 2008 - 11:01am PT
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You guys are funny. It is like arguing if there are dimples on the moon.
Does a falling tree make a sound...
Do a million holes ruin a perfectly good slab if no one will ever see them or know for sure?
Until a second ascent happens and the guy doesn't use any of the enhancements because they would have made the climb A1, how can anyone else whine?
Penis envy.
I'm upset that Armstrong left footprints on the moon. Can't see them, but I'm jealous.
Those guys took a perfectly good slab and turned it into another Serenity Crack.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 16, 2008 - 11:05am PT
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Yeah SteveW, but do you have the nominations for the Sanctimonious Prick Award?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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Jan 16, 2008 - 11:13am PT
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WoS is a museum climb in a most abstract sense.
All that's missing are the tools of the FA locked under glass, some wall-sized glossy posters complete with the unending ST threads, and wax replicas of the FA boyz, the protagonists, the antagonists and the sh!tters.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 16, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
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"weathering and lichen could hide small drill marks"
Thus, all in one stroke, was the mountain struck down to a mole hill and the tempest stilled by the removal of the teabags (from tired eyes)...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Jan 16, 2008 - 01:32pm PT
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I suppose I don't understand why Madbolter1 takes umbrage with Steve's quote of "The first ascent party ignored local ethics and bolted excessively".
The first part, that they ignored local ethics, in undeniably true. In fact, Madbolter seems to be proud of it, and he implies that his ethics were indeed superior, that "invisible" enhancements required for upward passage are superior to obvious and deliberate ones that subsequent ascents can utilize.
The second part, that they bolted excessively, is an relative opinion, and one that many would agree with, in terms of the standards of the day (i.e. 145 drilled holes for a first ascent on El Cap verses typically half, or a third, that number).
The question seems to be, as Clint points out, is whether or not the same principles of free climbing apply to big walls, that is, whether blank, featureless lines "deserve" more bolts because of their nature. Personally, I'm a follower of Robbins, who connected with big walls by seeking and climbing their natural lines of passage.
This discussion will never get resolved on the digital deli, because the last point is more a matter of style, and style is the sole domain of the contemporaneous cutting-edge practitioners, like Ammon, who beget such abstract aspects of the craft
Edit note: what I mean is, the notion of "style" is created only by actual action rather than by the blathering of "old dads" (like me) on the internet.
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 16, 2008 - 01:38pm PT
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P Ron--Nope, not me, I'm a casual observer--no judgement from
me on this one. It's beyond my skills, but I sure like reading
the venom. Truthfully, I don't even know about this, so I'm learning about it. I mean, remember when Harding did the Dawn Wall, and Robbins was going to erase it? By the time he climbed a pitch or so he realized the route really was climbed fairly.
I wonder if this isn't a similar situation?
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Jan 16, 2008 - 01:45pm PT
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In free climbing there are crack/trad climbs, then slab/bolted climbs. Generally.
With aid climbing there are crack/Royal's natural line climbs, then
hooking slab climbs? With possibly more bolts?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jan 16, 2008 - 02:03pm PT
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 16, 2008 - 02:14pm PT
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"he implies that his ethics were indeed superior, that "invisible" enhancements required for upward passage are superior to obvious and deliberate ones that subsequent ascents can utilize."
Would there be more outrage or less outrage if they had chiseled obvious holes in place of the "invisible" enhancements?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 16, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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Steve,
After reading the reports of those of us who have been up there, and who have described the spacing of the bolts and rivets, do you still believe that Mark and Richard "bolted excessively"?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jan 16, 2008 - 06:53pm PT
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how is it that you think you can go up there in 2007 and decide what was excessive BITD?
aaaaargh-
people that were not there were not there, and that is (and always will be) that!
why can't people wrap their brains around the concept of CONTEXT?
you think you can understand what people thought and felt at a time when you weren't there, simply by climbing things that they climbed, or reading what they wrote?
WRONG!
if you want to know what the climbing community back then felt was or was acceptable (or choose another word) in terms of hole count etc., you'll have to ASK THEM.
it seems to me that the one thing missing from the "this route is badass and these guys got a raw deal" club is a few of the people from that era saying the same thing. i hate to have to be the one to break it to all of you top-ropers and would-be WoS FAist defenders, but all that any of you, or mr. even ammon mcneely, can offer in the conversation about WoS, is an opinion that lacks the very context which makes said opinion valid.
(i would think that any self respecting wall-rat would take pause when their take on something like this is so opposite of the opinions of so many of those in whose top-steps he so regularly follows... take a look at who is arguing with you and who is arguing against you, and see who started climbing when.)
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jan 16, 2008 - 07:10pm PT
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"if you want to know what the climbing community back then felt was or was[sic] acceptable (or choose another word) in terms of hole count etc., you'll have to ASK THEM."
See the post above, and three and a half hours prior to yours, Matt. Seems to be exactly what was done.
Not taking sides, just pointing out the obvious. The other really obvious things in your post don't need pointing out.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 16, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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"The second pitch has a couple of hooks out of the anchor to a rivet. After that rivet two more hooks take you to another rivet (there weren't any flakes there that I could see.)"
What? That's not how the second pitch begins at all! Those guys must have scared themselves brainless or something, because the start of the second pitch is the crux, and the first two rivets are at around 20' and 40' out respectively.
Selective memory perhaps? For instance, I sometimes think back on my marriage fondly. There must be some psychological term about how you forget something in your past that was really scary or nasty or sick.
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 16, 2008 - 07:31pm PT
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"Would there be more outrage or less outrage if they had chiseled obvious holes in place of the "invisible" enhancements?" gc whoever you are?
IMO, it would be the same. At least if they were bathook holes, they could be honestly counted, and this part of the controversy would be over. Having learned so much about these guys and their climbing, it's amazing to me how so many of you still view them as master aidmen and incapable of drilling excessively.
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