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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2007 - 08:09pm PT
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Kallie=bryceman
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Sep 11, 2007 - 11:09pm PT
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DMT it is not voodoo. The only difference between a cult and a church is the number of members.
Me I will stick with proudly being an agnostic heathen.
Of course my favorite quote these days is from a John Hiatt song "Drive South" ...
it gets hot down where we're goin'
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Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal
Sport climber
Autobahn 3, Wurzburg.
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Sep 11, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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Kallie....you don't happen to have a brand of ground turkey named after you by any chance?
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Sep 12, 2007 - 12:09am PT
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Jennie, "Of the few Mormons on this forum I'm probably the "least worthy" Sorry I got you beat on that one. Your doing a fine job here jennie. Thanks.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2007 - 12:30am PT
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Yeah I probably disprespected it too. (Huh?)
Nice to see the Mormons circling the wagons on this of all days. LOL LOL
Well, it's almost over but,.........
isn't this ALSO the hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the first person of european descent (Nephi Johnson accompanied by a Parrusit guide) to penetrate Zion Canyon? (The guide didn't want to linger as hostile deities were thought to be active at night.)
What must THAT have been like?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Sep 12, 2007 - 12:44am PT
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Wow, all this fuss about a movie. Now for something real, will someone please explain how any rational person could base their worldview on a story involving buried golden tablets and X-ray goggles.
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nita
climber
chico ca
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Sep 12, 2007 - 12:51am PT
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Yep, Like my Dad-in-law likes to say, " Show me the Golden tablets!"..... LOL......
To each his own......
I must admit... I am still pissed, none of us were allowed to go to my Niece's Wedding. ;-(
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:42am PT
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What's harder to believe?
That ancient people wrote their history down on gold plates, or
that a poor, uneducated boy could fabricate a history of an ancient people that even today cannot be proved wrong?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2007 - 09:57am PT
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"even today cannot be proved wrong"
And that means it must be true? Sheesh.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Sep 12, 2007 - 10:27am PT
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And that means it must be true? No
Means it could be.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Sep 12, 2007 - 10:32am PT
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I'm not picking sides, but if this man can ask for "peace, love, and understanding", who can't? (I appreciate the shout out for atonement, and remembrance.)
"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?"
Note: I believe that this man does not carry the mark of Cain, and that originally we are all African. We're all human right?
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Sep 12, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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"If" you believe there is "a" God, than what is so unbelievable about it?
If you don't believe in "a" God, than of course it sounds unbelievable.
EDIT: Your right DMT! It does require alot of faith.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Sep 12, 2007 - 12:54pm PT
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I think this fits in nicely here.
"Delusional" Video from the WhyWontGodHealAmputees People
This is the anti-theology video that uses the Mormon case to rally against fairy tales.
DON"T WATCH IT IF YOU'RE GUNNA GET UPSET. Plus, its almost 10mins long.
For the record, I would likely not dare confronting my believing wife with this.
But, it may just happen some day.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 12, 2007 - 01:28pm PT
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gender confusion. avatars. virtual cross-dressing. earnest talk about God. random pissing. Jennie the Bringer of Light. isn't it time for this thread to get moved over to rc?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2007 - 01:43pm PT
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Why don't YOU go to RC? We're just starting to tap into the main vein here.
I started this to ask about the lesson(s) of the MMM, but now that Steve is starting to run downfield with the golden tablets under his arm (and blinders on his helmet) I'm thinking we might have some interesting play here. lol
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 12, 2007 - 01:52pm PT
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Verily I say unto you and Lo and Behold and Good Grief Charley Brown!
Kallie's words sound borrowed.
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HeathenInZion
climber
Utah
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Sep 12, 2007 - 02:23pm PT
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This whole discussion has been interesting. But for those of you who believe the Mormon Doctrine I want to share my tale of growing up in Zion as an outsider.
You all are so sensitive about anything negative that is said about Mormonism. Yet growing up here I experienced more exclusion, intolerance, and prejudice based on the fact that I didn’t practice Mormonism than you probably realize. The first awareness I had of this was when I was 5 years old. I had a “friend” on my street who one day told me that he couldn’t play with me anymore because we weren’t Mormon. I have non-Mormon relatives who have been welcomed to new neighborhoods warmly until the question of “What ward are you from?” was answered with “We’re not Mormons.” After that there was iciness from the neighbors. I could continue with more anecdotal evidence of this exclusionary treatment of gentiles by Utah Mormons, but I want to get on to my request to those of the LDS faith.
Don’t let this discrimination towards gentiles go on. Don’t exclude neighbors, friends, the spouses of relatives, or others because they don’t worship at the same pews. Don’t make decisions on who you will do business with based on their religion. Don’t promote or hire based on religious beliefs. Don’t re-elect representatives who pass punitive laws against non-believers. If someone in your family walks away from your religion, don’t disown them. Confront any Mormons who you witness doing any of these things. Open your minds and hearts and embrace diversity. If you do this, it will go further towards neutralizing the bad feelings towards your faith than anything else you could do.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 12, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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Heathen sounds like Kallie.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:40pm PT
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(I'm posting this in context of the original thread post of MMM "lessons learned.")
The long held belief that the Fancher party deliberately "poisoned waterholes" has been challenged by a theory that some of the Fancher livestock were infected with disease and the waterholes were infected unintentionally by their drinking the water which in turn caused deaths among animals owned by Indians and Mormons. That would be difficult to prove a century and a half after the fact. But it does make sense in light of the fact that Fancher party leaders were said to be individuals of integrity who knew other parties would follow. If waterholes were chemically poisoned, and intentionally, it was probably done by individuals acting on their own rather than a policy of the Fancher leadership.
But I doubt the waterhole issue was the central rub that led to the massacre. It was used primarily to stir up the Indians and local farmers.
Can anything justify the slaughter of innocents? No. But pride and anger will always find ways to rationalize bloodshed. The formula for Mountain Meadows was fairly simple; (1)Mormons felt they were on a war footing with Americans because of past persecutions, including Haun's Mill massacre and Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs extermination order (of Mormons) and later actions by the federal government. (2)Mormons refused to trade with with wagon trains who were badly in need of supplies (3)Proud and angry words were exchanged with bragging about past violence against Mormons (4) The Mormon militia sent to escort the Fanchers from Mormon lands, couldn't bear the insults and conspired to murder them, including the majority (of innocents) who had committed no offense.
Willful shedding of innocent blood is always unforgivable. But pride, like a faithful terrier, followed both Mormons and the Fanchers west. The massacre wasn't carried out in the name of religion but in the name of pride and it's anger.
But Americans went beyond pride and anger in the twentieth century. Or did our ability to rationalize just become more refined? Consider the thousands of noncombatants killed and maimed by the atomic bomb. Misdirected anger? Weapons experimentation? No, we had nifty, high minded rationalizations. But on judgement day, I don't think we can blame that one on the Indians.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:04pm PT
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DMT, wait for Kallie=Heathen=??? to explain it in a looonng post without paragraphs.
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