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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 14, 2007 - 01:56pm PT
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Surely you jest Matt.
Hmmmmm...it's been awhile since Homeland Security has upped the threat level to orange.
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 14, 2007 - 02:05pm PT
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color coordinated elevated terrorism threat levels are so last term...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2007 - 02:07pm PT
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I'm not going to defend Rummy. My point with Macarthur was that it's not unheard of for (excellent) generals to be replaced because they didn't tow the presidents line/gameplan. That's all.
In retropect though, Macarthur was probably right. And Bush/Rummy was probably wrong in the current situation. Petraeus should have been brought in a long time (2 years) ago. He's more suited to the current clusterf*ck there now. His strategies will prove to be the best yet, if not the winning ones.
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 14, 2007 - 02:18pm PT
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MacArthur had it coming anyway.
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John Moosie
climber
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Aug 14, 2007 - 02:39pm PT
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This is the book TGT bases his opinion on.
Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise to Western Power
It appears to me to be about how western culture has dominated history by being more ruthless. It seems to suggest that freedom inculcates a society with the ability to produce more powerful leaders. All of this could be true but has little to do with the situation in Iraq. It ignores some basic truths about life, such as any action creates an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, any brutality done by us will create an equal and opposite reaction of brutality. History proves this in the Roman empire, destroyed by its own lust.
This is a poor philosophy to base our future on. It dooms our children to destruction in the name of temporary peace.
As for freedom creating stronger leaders, this takes time and can not be forced on a people. Freedom unearned is not freedom. Iraq will not be free until its people choose freedom. This includes not giving in to their base desires of revenge. America would not have been free if its people did not work for freedom. The Iraqis do not yet understand this, therefore we are wasting our efforts there and are doomed to failure.
These are neocon wet dreams. Use brutality to create the illusion of freedom. Those who favor brutality can make loads of money on the war machine while appearing to be for freedom. This kind of freedom is a false freedom because it enslaves one to brutality.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 14, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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bluering is apparently clueless as to how the big wheel of defense turns...ocifers are put in place for a maximum term of two years and it is highly unusual for them to stick around in the same job after their two year term is up.
you can look at this a number of ways, one is that it allows them to get outathere with the job undone with only minimal responsibility, and another way to look at it is that they get rotated through various jobs they strengthen the force by more varied experiences.
fact.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2007 - 02:44pm PT
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Hawkeye, even NCO's? I didn't know that.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 14, 2007 - 02:53pm PT
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Hanson's book is history not philosophy. You could try reading the book and not the reviews.
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John Moosie
climber
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Aug 14, 2007 - 02:57pm PT
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It is interpetation of history which is philosophy.
You could try explaining yourself like Karl asked.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 14, 2007 - 02:57pm PT
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i dont know about nco's. but it is common practice outside of war for most service persons to be transferred around.
i know that army ocifers are transferred every two years, commonly.
look at the leaders of the war. name some that have been in their same jobs for more than two years....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 14, 2007 - 02:59pm PT
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btw, i found cheney's youtube thing from what 1994 (?) to be very enlightening. sure things change, but did the aftermath and quagmire thing change? guess not.
the other thing many dont realize is how effective the merican propaganda machine is.
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 14, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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the real pity is that it wasn't the case for sec. of defense
(2 yr. term of service, that is)
wanna know what's wrong w/ believing in david patreus?
it really doesn't matter what patreus does.
people need to understand that, and nobody ever talks about it.
(which proves to me how all you supporters are either unrealistic/blind or just plain stupid/silly).
patreus's thesis openly calls for counter insurgency efforts, the type he/we are now engaged in, until the insurgency is 'defeated'.
here is the problem:
we cannot sustain our forces there for even what he claims is the average time (10 or so years) insurgencies last.
will anyone ever ask either patreus or bush what will happen if we put up with this war for a few mor months (or a few more years?) but still do not completely 'defeat the enemy'? (which itself is a dubious concept in this conflict)
the whole packaging of the war right now is built around everyone awaiting some report in september/october, and does anyone seriously doubt that an optimistic general P. will be all it takes to earn bush another 6 months of appropriations?
(they will continue to play the 'support the troops' card when in fact they are doing the opposite)
then they will not be able to make changes in policy because they won't want to tie the incoming president's hands.
then there will be a dem. president and a dem. congress, and we will be looking at an iraq strategy that requires 150K-200K troops in theater for 10 years, a resurgent taliban in afganistan, a weakened musharef(sp?) in pakistan, and an all volunteer military on their 6th+ rotation.
whatever happens, republicans for decades upon decades will blame democrats; it's karl rove's greatest ploy yet.
and some of you dumb mother f*#kers out there seriously think you are on the side of 'good' in a battle against 'evil' (RATHER THAN THE WRONG SIDE OF A COMPLETELY SCREWED UP AND MISMANAGED ATTEMPT TO CONTROL VAST OIL RESOURCES!), and that your support for the war is in the best interests of the men and women in uniform, when in fact you are simply helping incompotent criminals scew all of us- brilliant! nice f*#king brains on you people!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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So we should just pull completely out now, Matt? That's brilliant!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 14, 2007 - 03:26pm PT
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blue said "So we should just pull completely out now, Matt? That's brilliant! "
unfortunatley this ugly baby has already been conceived and abortion is outlawed this late in the term.....
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 14, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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So we should just pull completely out now, Matt? That's brilliant!
see blueguy, you try to masquerade as some sort of open minded free thinker, but when the rubber hits the road you're sheeple, you're absent of original thought, so you spew unfiltered bill oriley as fluently as lois ever did.
and i never said that, nor anything like that.
but, if we are not going to be fulfilling the 10+ year plan-
(btw- would that require a draft? why does the republican who started the war say no, but set up the armed forces to be depleted and strained and extended and over-rotated when a democrat takes over? hmmm...)
but back to my point, if we are not going to actually occupy iraq successfully, and 'defeat' whomever wants to fight us in iraq (and who can say who that will be in another 6 or 8 years!?!), we may as well figure out a backup plan. all i have heard that sounds even plausable is "redeployment", which is not the active military campaign we are now following.
how would that work?
who knows, you see they won't even talk about it, this administration has no plan B, there is no open conversation, so how the hell do i come up with the perfcet plan?
all i know is that there were plenty of people like you chirping about how we had to defeat communism in viet nam, and telling americans that we could not leave defeated, so we had better escalate(!) in order to win the war(!), and we'd better find a general w/ a plan to win, etc.
the logic game is itself flawed, we are playing a shell game and nothing more.
we can't leave so we have to stay
we lose if we leave so it doesn't matter if we lose if we stay
we cannot possibly keep doing what we are doing, but we can do it until the next president is in office, so we have to keep doing it
we can't talk to syria or iran because they support terrorism
we need syria and iran to stay out of iraq because we want it to be free of terrorists
we can't possibly do anything about syria or iran because we are too extended in iraq
iran is sandwiched between iraq and afganistan/pakistan, but we cannot talk to them about anything, ever, but they better do what we say (or else*)
* empty threat
we are addicted to oil but we cannot raise cafe standards because the senators from michigan are too powerful in a 49/50/1 senate
we need to cut taxes to the extremely wealthy to keep the economy going, but people who need special morgatges to buy starter homes are defaulting in record #s, which will burden the economy, se we will need to bail the banks out (again), but the poorest of homeowners, who already had bad credit to start with, are screwed.
(good thing we alread reformed welfare, and we can give this new class of poorer people jobs, just as soon as we kick out the 20 million illegal aliens that build and clean our homes, watch our kids, and pick all of our food).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2007 - 04:18pm PT
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Matt, since you are such a free-thinker, maybe you could offer some ideas that you think would work better, instead of just saying we can't pull but what we're doing right now is obviously wrong.
If things keep going they way they are now, I'd expect a drawdown in troop levels within a year..max. We'd still provide support, but mostly Iraqi troops would be in combat roles.
Also, you think there is no other plan, a plan B. As if the defense dept would just issue that in a press release?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 14, 2007 - 04:22pm PT
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Bluering wrote:
"In retropect though, Macarthur was probably right"
You mean you think we should have nuked China and killed more folks than Hitler? Shame! Certainly now China is a threat but I just can't stomach that level of selfish murderous greed for supremacy.
TGT:
The first book is meaningless. Of course we can bomb the crap and techno-war any country into the stone age but we can't "win" because we're just being imperialists who don't want to stay and die and they are fighting for their home. Conquering a country is one thing, owning it is another. The west has no ability to own Iraq, Vietnam or anyplace else because we are decadent and don't want to make the sacrifices it take to keep slaves in check.
The second book is just neoconservatism. I don't care if Kerry buys it. I don't buy it and don't buy the DLC Democrats either.
Why don't you come out and say what you are really thinking and pointing to which is this:
You believe that somebody is going to have to "rule the world" perhaps as benevolently as possible and that it has to be America. We are just going to have to invade countries, impose our will, check China somehow, and demand the resources and energy to continue our American Lifestyle. That's what this Iraq war is about and if folks could just admit it, maybe they would pony up the kids and cash it would take to dominate the place for as long as needed.
But you can't even say it, and the people have to be suckered into it with terrorist threats and Islamofascist fears. The thing is, a lie reveals itself hollow in time and folks are left choosing to believe the lies halfheartedly because they don't want to take responsibility for being selfish murderous amoral scum.
The world is certainly headed for a crisis. The US will try to be "in charge" China is absolutely certain to challenge us and has serious resource to do so. Maybe we'll have a terrible bloodbath.
The alternative is a cooperative world system based on reason, fairness, and justice. It seems like a pipe dream to the cynics but its either that or untold and unending death and an unending commitment to war for selfish ends. Who wants to sign up to donate a few kids for that? It'll be hard to make an enduring false excuse for it.
Come on TGT, just spell out the way it is and how any government will bring the people over to the plan.
Peace
Karl
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 14, 2007 - 04:31pm PT
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If things keep going they way they are now, I'd expect a drawdown in troop levels within a year..max. We'd still provide support, but mostly Iraqi troops would be in combat roles.
that carrot has been held out in front of us for how many years in a row? boy bluey, you sure are easy to please, and again, i say it's because the people you listen to and identify with are telling you to accept it, and they in turn are being regularly coddled by the WH.
you'd best wise up and see the bigger picture, that iraq is not being culturally transformed (i.e. the iraqi people will not be chosing our western values over their own long standing traditional culture, as envisioned by the PNAC, and still implied by the blog in your OP, w/ the idea that our army has "a new moral authority" w/ the iraqis), as soon as we pull back (and we will pull back, at some point, someday, sooner or later, no matter what) the indigenous interests will have the upper hand and their influence will very likely create much more of what they want to see than what we'd want to see.
we went to war with iraq and we lost the war to iran.
fighting against pissed off iraqis over here or over there is beyond pointless.
the only real question for me is whether the whole region goes unstable, and arcs into suni/shia conflict, and at what level that happens. even from san rafel i feel pretty confident that what we accomplish short term in this town or that town will have little or no bearing on that question.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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Karl, you...
sorry, I couldn't resist.
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