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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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this must be what it was like after Kennedy was shot.
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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Apr 30, 2007 - 02:39pm PT
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just a link on the question of how hot steel has to get before there are worries of collapse (the answer is about 540 degrees Celsius):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_fire_protection
as peter haan and others have said, the issue of melting point is irrelevant.
i don't have any expertise on the trade center events, but i really doubt there was any kind of government conspiracy. the key fact i would like to cite is that if there was a conspiracy, it didn't get f*#ked up.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Apr 30, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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One of you says it takes hundreds of people for explosives...
That section of Pentagon hit by the plane was under construction, there were hundreds of construction guys in there, look at what is on the lawn at the time.
WTC 7 had just been re-opened from renovations on many floors.
And as is more widely known, WTC 1 and 2 had 60% occupancy and reno. going on at the time.
And there have been loads of people with stories to tell about what they saw/heard, but they aren't given media time because either the media is told not to run them, or it doesn't fit with the 'official' story. You just aren't listening.
If you want an example of how the current Administration can pull the wool over the public's eyes, look at how they sold the Iraq war which was all lies. If you want an example of how the Gov't can lie and keep huge secrets in past years, look at the Gulf of Tonkin.
MORE IMPORTANTLY,
get to know the truth about your government, learn about their history, look through not current media/propaganda, but through official gov't docs made available to you through the Freedom of Information Act. Why the media doesn't educate people about this I have no idea, but it is one place to find out the truth about what was going on, and helps you to understand what they are doing now.
Just because you don't hear people's voices through FOX or CNN, doesn't mean it isn't happening. It amazes me at how many Americans are so ignorant about their own gov't, they have this media/movie image in their minds and don't educate themselves. Or think for themselves.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 30, 2007 - 03:24pm PT
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The point is that NO ONE knew what a fully fueled 747 slamming into a massive highrise would do. There's simply no way to model that or understand everything involved.
NO ONE knew what flying a similiar plane at 400 mph into the side of the Pentagon would do either...
So all of these "scientists" that claim such and such could never have happened are full of SH#T!
And demo'ing a building like the WTC would take weeks and weeks of prep work that plenty of people would have noticed. The only other way to do it would be with truly massive charges. Which didn't happen since you certainly would have heard/seen it on ALL of the videos....
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Apr 30, 2007 - 03:32pm PT
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So you are saying, since it never happened before, and we have no way to know what would happen, you choose to believe what these politicians tell you, and choose to believe that these scientists are full of sh#t? Remember, you just said that you had no way of knowing what would happen. You leave yourself open to just believing what you may, for whatever reason you may. You believe the media, but you don't know them.
It just seems to me that you 'know' your government from what the media tells you. That is like saying you know Schwarzenegger and you trust that indeed he "will be back."
The only way to get to know someone is to know their history. Spend time with them, and then since you can look back at time spent together you can say you know them. Spend some time with your government, read their own historical documents on other wars etc. Then this thread will be intelligent people debating things about a government they know something about. It helps when people are on the same page. Then you can debate details effectively.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2007 - 03:56pm PT
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I heard a private talk from a architect who claimed he was part of designing some of the floors. He claimed the buidling had been designed with demolition infrastructure from the beginning because, at the time, they were demoing buildings in NY right and left so they figured one day they'd make money by demoing this one and building something else. Can't verify this claim.
Why don't you guys forget about these demolition claims and focus for once on the clear lies told, shifting stories and ommisions of the 9-11 report. The cut and paste (although somewhat deporable) of summary from DRG's book debunking the report is instructive. I don't know what happened but there IS a coverup, and we ARE being lied to. Let's find out the truth.
Even the heads of the 9-11 commission have confessed ommisions based on political agenda
peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2007 - 04:20pm PT
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Right you are Jody ;-) That's the traditional Christain view anyway, that humans are flawed sinners. I couldn't agree more except that I don't think the darkness extends to our core.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Being the lone superpower is a curse. All nations have bad qualities, most are much worse. It's our extreme power that makes us a particular world problem right now.
Face it, any other country that invaded two non-beligerent nations would be condemned by you. The fact that it's us is the only thing excusable about it
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2007 - 04:20pm PT
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Thanks Karl, good points.
My view aligns with yours, there are so many obvious questions that
are going unanswered--big things right in front of us.
I am not advocating a big conspiracy theory, nor am I proclaiming
that men in black coats did all this stuff. However, the more these
questions go unanswered, the louder the questions become.
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 04:25pm PT
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Leslie Robertson designed the structural elements of the towers:
"The events of 11 September 2001 are beyond description. Knowing that, in World War II, the Empire State Building had been accidentally struck by a Mitchell bomber,we had designed the towers for the possible impact by a Boeing 707 aircraft; the design was for for a low-flying, slow-flying, low-in-fuel,707 – lost in the fog and seeking to land. The Boeing 767s which struck the buildings were a bit heavier, but were flying above their rated speed, and were fuel-laden – imparting significantly higher levels of energy into the towers than had been anticipated in the design. While the damaged structures withstood the impact, only to succumb to the fires, it should not lead to complacency. This follows because the Mitchell Bomber, the 707s, and the 767s are small when compared to the Boeing 747 and to the new Airbus. Accordingly,I believe strongly that we should not design our buildings to withstand the attack of these aircraft – instead, there are more fruitful ways to save lives."
http://www.lera.com/files/Gold%20Medal%2005%20Brochure%20LER.pdf
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2007 - 04:26pm PT
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Thanks, even the former CIA director is now alleging that Bush and Cheney went to war based on lies. The rats are getting off the ship and trying to save their tails, and STILL impeachment isn't seriously considered. The public has their head in the sand about Iraq and 9-11. It's easier to see the lies versus Iraq because of it's scale.
Catch Jessica Lynch's recent speech where she admitted her whole rescue/hero story was a propaganda lie? The Tilman affair is a now a proven lie. The falling of Saddam's statue is documented to be a staged event. All the famous heroic soundbites from the war are pure fictions when examined. When are we going to wake up and clean up our government.
And yes, it's not just the GOP, its the Democrats too. Our founders built checks and balances into our governement that the neocons are trying to tear down, but there was never an effective check on the influence of huge elite money and that's who is ruling now, regardless of GOP or DEM.
Peace
Karl
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 30, 2007 - 04:30pm PT
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Klimmer, have you ever seen a gallon metal gas can crushed by simple atmospheric pressure? It is real easy. Put a half cup of water in it and bring the water to a vigorous boil. Then cap it being careful not to bring skin into contact with escaping steam or into contact with hot metal. Then place the can in some nice cold water.
You are probably wondering what this has to do with Doesn't happen with out [sic] an explosive force to cause it. What is an "explosive force"? The mass of an object, to be sure, is relevant to its acceleration. But consider a sail. It moves a boat with a very small force differential from one side of the object to the other. It is the size of the sail that governs the acceleration - same as a wall exposed to a change in pressure. Gosh, seems to me we have all seen pictures on the Weather Channel of roofs being lifted off building in tornadoes. Where was the explosion? Where was the melting metal? Who was conspiring to place those charges?
Other useful examples of using pressure to advantage: the little airbags that can be used in rescue work to lift vehicles. The tires on your bicycle that lift you up with only about two or three square inches in contact with the road.
Sure you can dream up all sorts of wild ways to bring buildings down. But real scientists go with the explanations that fit the most facts, like, for example, the fact that the building really was hit by an airplane with nearly full fuel tanks.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Apr 30, 2007 - 04:37pm PT
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"What can we do about it?"
Hopefully learn from the mistakes made, to think critically in the future and don't settle for explanations that don't make sense.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2007 - 05:18pm PT
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Some change is Iraq is possible now because the people are putting on some pressure. It's better than languishing there for years. More pressure and exposure of the lies will make future lies harder to pull off.
Sort of like regular crime. Once the criminals know their DNA is traceable and hairs at the crime scene are hard to conceal, it's harder to think of getting away with their crime.
That's what happening with 9-11, historians will know there was a coverup and names will be blackened. The totality of people, collaborating over the net, can call BS by combining their knowledge.
That's why the Bush team is so concerned with secrecy and keeping everything under wraps.
Tell me, what national security reason could be served by not releasing security camera tapes of the jetliner heading to Pentagon? Only one of two
1. A jetliner really hit the Pentagon and the coverup folks started this "no jet hit the pentagon" distraction so they could shoot it down later by eventually releasing the tapes that they had to reason to keep secret in the beginning.
or
2. No jetliner hit the Pentagon
Peace
Karl
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 05:26pm PT
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Karl, post your trustworthy sources that prove their are tapes of the airliner approaching the pentagon.
Or are you just speculating?
If this were true, everybody interested in 911 would be demanding them now, including myself.
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 05:35pm PT
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Hey Crowley, thanks for making 3 massive text dumps into this thread.
How about just providing a summary and a link?
And again, I'm waiting for proof the gov is holding back security cam video of the approaching airliner.
Security cam video has already been released(Pentagon,DoubleTree). If there is more, then I want to know about it.
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 05:44pm PT
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Of course I will read your summary, then go to the link if required. Blowing up the thread with posts that you cannot even get the entire article in is bullsh#t.
Again, where is the proof that there is a video of the plane approaching the Pentagon?
This is crucial. You can put a huge dent in the accepted theory if you can prove this.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
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Hi Monolith
I appreciate your reasonable discourse here.
Nobody knows what's on the security tapes since they haven't been released. I don't know what a credible source would be.
It's also notable the tapes of interviews with air traffic controllers active on 9-11 have been destroyed. No doubt about that.
Here's one example pretaining to your first question
""Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, announced today that it filed a lawsuit on February 22, 2006 against the Department of Defense to force the release of a video that allegedly shows United Flight 77 striking the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. Judicial Watch seeks the information in part to help put to rest conspiracy theories that a government drone or missile hit the Pentagon rather than the hijacked United airplane.
Judicial Watch originally filed a Freedom of Information Act request on December 15, 2004, seeking all records pertaining to camera recordings from the Sheraton National Hotel, the Nexcomm/Citgo gas station, Pentagon security cameras and the Virginia Department of Transportation. The Department of Defense admitted in a January 26, 2005 letter that it possessed a videotape responsive to Judicial Watch’s request. However, the Pentagon advised that the video is exempt from release because it is, “part of an ongoing investigation involving Zacarias Moussaoui.”
Judicial Watch argues in its lawsuit that “there is no legal basis” for the DOD’s refusal to release the videotape. First, while the Freedom of Information Act does allow an exemption for ongoing law enforcement investigations, the Defense Department does not have law enforcement authority over Moussaoui. That belongs to the Department of Justice or the FBI. Second, the investigation of Moussaoui is complete. He pleaded guilty in April 2005 to conspiring with al-Qaida to fly planes into U.S. buildings. Jury selection in Moussaoui’s death penalty trial is nearly finished, and opening arguments are scheduled for March 6.
“There is no legal or rational basis for the Department of Defense to withhold this video,” said JW President Tom Fitton. “There may be nothing of importance on this tape, but our experience has been that whenever the government takes extraordinary measures to keep the lid on documents, it is worth investigating.” "
http://www.judicialwatch.org/5724.shtml
I believe Judicial watch is a conservative org but I could be wrong. I don't claim a jetliner didn't hit the Pentagon. I do doubt that a new pilot could have hit it using a 270 diving manuever that leveled off just in time to skim the lawn though.
peace
karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2007 - 06:03pm PT
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monolith: Karl, post your trustworthy sources that prove their are tapes of the airliner approaching the pentagon.
Or are you just speculating?
If this were true, everybody interested in 911 would be demanding them now, including myself.
View this Flash:
http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php
[Sorry, but you're going to have to watch the whole few minutes,
the bit about the tapes comes at the end.]
So, are you going to demand the tapes be released?
Or do you want some more KoolAid.
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Apr 30, 2007 - 06:04pm PT
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Thanks Karl,
If the video is being held up due to the Zacarias Moussaoui trial, then that is understandable.
However, the trial will be over soon and we will all demand that it be released.
But it is highly unlikely that the guv would introduce it as evidence if it is as damaging as CT'ers claim.
k-man, can't you guys put out videos without scary music and Hitler overtones. Who's going to sit through that crap?
Edit: This is all last years news. The trial is over. The videos have been released. Nothing of value to either side.
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