how to bridge the divide

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MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jul 14, 2018 - 09:46am PT
NutAgain!,

Thanks for your post. You listed many variables and dynamics going on. It might be useful if you could see a bigger picture that would encompass those variables and dynamics. I’d maybe suggest some Buddhist ideas, but after 35 years involved in it, I’d characterize that as a Byzantine maze.

Divorces and personal relationships tend to initiate self-reflection and contemplation. I’d suggest that’s the right track, and I think you’re thinking for yourself.

At the end of the day, it’s really all about you. What you are, what you see, how you interpret things, what you think is of value (conventionally, ultimately), etc. Starting this thread and attempting to keep it on-topic (smiley face here) is an indication of your sincerity in that regard. I applaud your goodwill.

We’re all human, brother.

Be well.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jul 15, 2018 - 06:27am PT
I think Clinton tried to get people excited about Bin Hatin', but folks were too excited about Billy getting a BJ in the Oval. Oh, well. Ain't politics grand? We can't bridge the divide because we're too effin' tribal, and the Internet has only exacerbated the problem.

BAd
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2018 - 08:13am PT
Hi Mikel, I’m curious what the big-picture wrapper around all this stuff might be from a Buddhist perspective. I tend to reinvent the wheel with religious/philosophical stuff because I don’t have the patience to wade through voluminous expositions separating the wheat from the chaff.

Pretty ironic considering how much I post voluminous expositions with wheat obfuscated by chaff! Maybe it just shows how challenging it is to strip down the key ideas but leave enough meat and context for it to not be too abstract. The right level of summarization is different depending on whether you just want to remember or if you are trying to learn something in the first place.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jul 30, 2018 - 07:44am PT
It's pretty funny, watching the hysterical thrutchings of the masses.

Example one:

The media is a bunch of lying ass puppets until Chump says "Fake News". Now the fourth estate (the press) is suddenly a lock-step army of ethical journalists. Nonsense
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jul 30, 2018 - 08:01am PT
Example two:

Red Scare Conservatives are the enemy of every liberal until Chump. Now every barely aware thinks Russia is the Axis, Hub and Spokes of Evil. Nonsense.


And if you're a left/ prog ( like me) you should feel deep shame about Syria. We did this. Back when Obama was getting the benefit of the doubt. Then he started agitating against Russia during the election run-up. Deep shame


Example Three:
Every peacenik ( like you and me) thought the DMZ and Korean Conflict was the biggest embarrassment and a monument to stupidity. Every peacenik wants deescalation and normalization of relations. Until now. Now we need to keep kicking North Korea with jackboots to maintain our moral superiority. Nonsense.


Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jul 30, 2018 - 08:24am PT
The Taoist take is one of bemused indifference to the tragicomic political theater of the moment.
John M

climber
Jul 30, 2018 - 09:03am PT
Every peacenik ( like you and me) thought the DMZ and Korean Conflict was the biggest embarrassment and a monument to stupidity.

I guess I'm not a peacenik, though I am for things that promote peace. I would have been for the US halting the advance of the Soviet Union into South Korea. I understand the need for the DMZ. I don't mind some form of normalization of relations between North and South Korea, but that doesn't mean stopping the DMZ, because the North is ruled by an Insane person with a crazy large military who I don't doubt would invade South Korea if we weren't there. I understand the need for a strong military presence when you are dealing with crazy.

Just as I understand the need for a strong police presence. Where I seem to differ with the conservatives is I do believe that our police currently have an authoritarian problem.

Finding the balance between being compassionate and being strong is the problem for most humans. The left is out of balance with being too compassionate, thus lacking a strong line that one doesn't cross. The right is out of balance with being too strong, lacking compassion and empathy.

In my opinion, neither the left nor the right is in balance.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jul 30, 2018 - 09:29am PT
So much cultural relativism.

You guys are showing why the Democratic platform is the most mainstream conservative POV.

John M

climber
Jul 30, 2018 - 10:00am PT
You guys are showing why the Democratic platform is the most mainstream conservative POV.

Is that bad? Seriously..

I want to drastically reduce the national debt and create a rainy day fund.
I want a strong military, but not spend the crazy amount that we currently do. I do not see the need to spend more then the next 8 largest countries.
I want strong support for workers rights.
I am against banning abortion.
I want sane gun laws.
I want campaign finance reform.
I want strong public schools.
I want a repaired infrastructure
I want to continue to protect national lands
I want to separate the forest service from fighting fires to help them with their budget.
I want single payer health care for basic care, with supplemental insurance for higher levels of care.


I understand that these things are difficult to achieve.

I believe that the right has gone too far in protecting police, but the left has also gone too far in attacking them. Both sides seem to be insane on a lot of issues.

Are these things bad in your mind?

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jul 30, 2018 - 10:11am PT
Nice platform John M.

I think most Americans would support 80% of it. I'm fine with all of it,

Unfortunately, the extremes keep the focus on wedge issues, with the volume cranked.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2018 - 10:39am PT
John M, I’m supportive of everything you mentioned.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 30, 2018 - 11:07am PT

And if you're a left/ prog ( like me) you should feel deep shame about Syria. We did this. Back when Obama was getting the benefit of the doubt.

And what should of Obama have done differently? I don't see any good options. We had a massive invasion of Iraq and it went poorly. In Libya we didn't put boots on the ground, but we did major air strikes, and it went poorly. In Syria, we mostly stayed on the sidelines (until ISIS invaded Iraq) and it went poorly.

The chemical attacks/red line was a PR disaster but if Obama had never drawn that line, I don't think things would have been any different.

We didn't break/own Syria and we didn't put massive number of US soldiers on the ground. I don't see what option would have been better.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Jul 30, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
John M:
I want to drastically reduce the national debt and create a rainy day fund.
I want a strong military, but not spend the crazy amount that we currently do. I do not see the need to spend more then the next 8 largest countries.
I want strong support for workers rights.
I am against banning abortion.
I want sane gun laws.
I want campaign finance reform.
I want strong public schools.
I want a repaired infrastructure
I want to continue to protect national lands
I want to separate the forest service from fighting fires to help them with their budget.
I want single payer health care for basic care, with supplemental insurance for higher levels of care.


John M, I noticed that the following is NOT on your list:
Freedom
Human rights
Democracy

Is this just an accidental omission?
I do not think so.

This is a fundamental difference between progressives and liberals.
You are not liberal.
You are progressive.

I noticed that many progressives are willing to sucrifice these for more important issues such as a right of a male to pee in a girls washroom.


John M

climber
Jul 30, 2018 - 08:31pm PT
I noticed that many progressives are willing to sucrifice these for more important issues such as a right of a male to pee in a girls washroom.

nope.. not me

I have always been for Democracy, Freedom and Human rights. I do not know where you got the idea that I wasn't. You assume too much.

Edit: by the way.. Workers rights are human rights.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 30, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
Jeff Sessions is now ranting about the new (un-identified, but scary) threat to religious liberty. It is very-important for Trumpians, to keep the Republican base fearfull!

Sessions cited "a dangerous movement" aimed toward stripping away the First Amendment right to freedom of religion as a basis for forming the new task force.

"A dangerous movement, undetected by many, is now challenging and eroding our great tradition of religious freedom," Sessions said in his speech. "There can be no doubt. This is no little matter. It must be confronted and defeated."
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/30/politics/jeff-sessions-religious-liberty-task-force/index.html
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jul 31, 2018 - 06:08am PT

In the beginning, it was just beir-halz banter, often un-heard over the laughter. . .
went down well,
to help drown the misery & poverty &
The dis-regard for humanity, birth'd in World War
& all that the 1st blush of that
failed totalitarianism had wrought,
it was fun & funny, most thought.

then those not allowed in to drink there,
put on brown & marched to town
came and broke out all the windows

in short the spiral to hell we are now on has happened before , some will say again & again

Only Patton saw it for what it was, and called it what it was saying there should be no end till there is no more
Red. . . .

gnow your history,. your asre is doomed to repeat

bridge?
not
ever

never again


If your gay hide if your sane hide if your wealthy hide if you have a care to see a better future hide

there can be no bridge to the otherside of apocalypse
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2018 - 10:43am PT
What I think of when I say "bridge the divide" is not the same as what some people seem to perceive when they hear it.

I am not saying "meet insane destructive ideologies half way." I am saying, try to understand what drives people to embrace insane ideologies, and try to deal with the roots of that problem and reconnect with people... build a bridge to those people and together create viable alternatives so that insane ideologies don't seem like the best option to people who are struggling with different stuff that you or I or others may not perceive or understand.

The bridge is a way to bring humanity together before we are united by the least common denominator of being susceptible to gravity and human vice, the fall into the chasm. It is a way of fighting the war against insane destructive ideologies, but it is fighting it in a dimension other than physical violence. Physical fighting is the last recourse, and has the most ugly side-effects that also spread the seeds for the next infestation of insane ideologies, perpetuating a cycle of destruction.

Part of my motivation in this thread was to find a way to break that cycle.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jul 31, 2018 - 11:45am PT
Nut
build a bridge to those people and together create viable alternatives so that insane ideologies
I think most moddrates and liberals would reflexively say this is step one and perhaps step two and three as well. After all, empathy is typically a root source of liberal and centrist views. I'm in total agreement, especially on a personal level.

It's when such efforts are taken advantage of, seen as week, or worse- these efforts are reconstructed as lying and villainous behavior. This is exactly the case right now and our way of life is under threat and the future of my children is at stake. These are not just my words, they are echoed by past CIA and NSA directors and many high ranking Admirals and Generals.

So maybe it's time for the "Enter the Death Clutch" thread.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 31, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
Tut,

Is Trump a Conservative?

How about Sessions?

Paul Ryan?

These men, and men like them, who are of the ilk you describe, have stolen the mantle of Conservatism. Conservatism as a set of constructive social and political ideas has no voice today.

The idea of natural rights, some say God given, is that there are certain rights which cannot be granted nor taken away by government. Locke, one of the enlightenment period thinkers included property among those rights. Our founders looked to Locke as an influence, as guiding their philosophy. None the less they struck property as an inalienable right from the Declaration. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the foundation for the principle of self ownership, the most basic natural right.

Of course when the Declaration as written, we had slavery. Not much self ownership there. Hypocrisy, or high ideals? I'm sure some of each. But letters and diaries from the period show that many of these men hoped, with those words, that they were sowing the seeds for the demise of slavery. Among these was Jefferson, who was against slavery and was the principal author of the Declaration. He also said that he feared their words would lead to a great civil war. Jefferson rationalized keeping his slaves because if he freed them they would be captured and either killed or enslaved by a more brutal master than he.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jul 31, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
Trump, his sycophants and the extreme Ayn Rand Libertarians will have damaged the conservatives in this country more than the liberals because they have co-opted the Republican Party as a Trojan Hoarse for greed, fear, hate and carpet bagging. It will be the Republican party in the end, that will bear the brunt of retribution. Seeing the writing on the wall, some conservatives have publicly endorsed Democratic leadership (see George Will).

I did not agree with Buckley but we need his voice more than ever.
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