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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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madbolter1:
The trend of the last 50-60 years has been the systematic turning on its head of this logical priority, such that now (far too many) people honestly believe that "law and order" just MEANS that individuals CANNOT protect themselves
Actually it's the most important issue.
Gradual non-stop encroachment of totalitarianism happened regardless whether Democrats or Republicans were in power.
It looks like conservatives started finally awakening.
However, liberals still want full steam ahead to the 1984th.
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John M
climber
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It looks like conservatives started finally awakening.
However liberals still want full steam ahead to the 1984th.
I see it the opposite except maybe on gun control.
Its the liberals who fought about the loss freedoms and the invasion of privacy from the american patriot act. And its liberals who decry the invasion of privacy from the NSA. Conservative often seem to be all too willing to give up their privacy and their freedoms. They often say things like... "why be afraid, I have nothing to hide. I'm not a criminal". So they gladly give up their freedoms in the name of "safety". Then they misconstrue gun control as "you can't own a gun". Add in how willing they are to give more power to the military, some even wanting the military to do more policing within america, and to me it means liberals are more awake to the dangers of too much power then are conservatives.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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We have Liberal Gun Laws
Not conservative, conservative Gun laws would restrict them almost completely
The Right Wingers love their liberal Gun laws, which make them not true conservatives
and they are the first ones to take away our freedoms for safety
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John M
climber
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Craig.. you are playing word games. Its liberals who want conservative gun control.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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This is about a rapidly changing world.
People with a Liberal world view are open to change.
People with a Conservative world view don't like change.
Seem simplistic?
It is.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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True....and if you can't deal with change, change will deal with you.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Craig Fry: . . . a Liberal revolution called the enlightenment that was the basis for the Constitution 200 years ago
Hmmm, I believe an argument can be made that the bloody French Revolution killed off the Enlightenment. At least it made many question the validity of its final ideas. (And here we are arguing about them still.)
A liberal is a person who believes in liberty. Give men and women freedom, and supposedly they will do the right things. Their behaviors will be moral. A conservative believes that men unconstrained will not do the right thing: hence a focus on law and moral upbringing. There are also stark differences between what can be managed by really smart men (the liberal point of view) and those who think that interventions in complex situations often lead to unintended consequences: men are not smart enough to deal with non-linear situations with highly dense connections.
Your view of the Enlightenment, IMO, grossly glosses over the many differences among those who help it to arise. There is no doubt that the primary advocates were immensely and almost unbelievably successful, but the theoretical differences among Locke, Rousseau, Kant, Hobbes, Goethe, Nietzsche, Toqueville, Calvin, Socrates, Machiavelli, and others (during, before, and after the Enlightenment) are great. In the end, it’s “rights” versus “culture.” One can take either side and “win”— and find themselves in a morass of irresolvable or unsolvable problems.
I loath to say it this way, but I think that the smarter the person is, the more likely they are to think that they can identify the key problems, come up with the best solutions, and then completely execute them. If it concerns non-linear, complex problems, it almost never quite works out that way. Toqueville might have been most prescient. He favored democracy here in America when he travelled the country in his time, but he also said that our strain of democracy would surely lead to a most mundane and contentious existence. The democratic dangers occur when every man who decides for himself becomes enslaved to public opinion, and when consensus and accommodation are necessary. On the other hand, the non-democratic individual, deeply committed to values, are not easy going or maybe even likable. They have standards received from tradition, not derived from rational calculation of material self interests. They are the heroes, the saints, the geniuses, the artists, the aristocrats--passionate, sometimes savage, creative, soulful, charismatic, authentic, deeply willful, demonic beings whose greatest works are themselves. They seem to have had a proud contempt for the merely necessary.
In order to experience the freedom of mind, one requires the presence of alternative thoughts.
I believe it was Socrates who said that a peaceful wealthy society, where people look up to science and have the funds to support it, is worth more than any splendid imperium where there are slaves and no philosophy. :-)
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Your view of the Enlightenment, WTF?
you don't know anything about my view, I haven't said a thing about it except that it was part of America's early history on becoming a Country and it was a liberal phenomena
the Founding Fathers were liberals
and they fought for freedom against the Conservatives that wanted to remain an English Colony.
The Civil War was basically a war of Northern Liberals that wanted to maintain a liberal society and the Southern Conservatives that wanted slaves and to have the landowners become the leaders
and still
today we have the liberals fighting to stop the conservative agenda of ruin
2 sides, 2 points of view, one is based on reality and rights, the other based on lies that promote an agenda based on lobbyist desires
but if you're a silly fool, you'd say both sides are the same
Hitler and FDR??? exactly the same! both sides can't be wrong, just different points of view!
and FDR dropped a lot of bombs! so it must be true.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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I submit "the reaper" is not a person, and the natural processes that govern your mortality do care if you can adapt to change.
Darwin made that point pretty convincingly.
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c wilmot
climber
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The founding fathers would be called white nationalists and racists by today's liberals...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Careful, Mike. There is a penalty for providing such a clear and articulate exposition on this thread. Neoliberalism is highly restrictive of free speech.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Neoliberalism = Neoconservative = Neocon
Which was the Reagan/Bush platform
Yes, they were into restricting free speech, and they set up the wiretapping of everybody
I advocate free speech, just don't say things that are untrue
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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I teach my kids that if they want more freedom, they have to accept more responsibility. The two are inextricably linked. I perceive that many people in America want freedoms without the associated responsibilities or accountability. This leads to stuff like the hobbling of the Environmental Protection Agency and and Department of Education. An abdication of responsibility that is masked by the shouting for freedom. The chasm created by separating freedom from responsibility will increase the divide between the rich and the poor, the haves and the have-nots.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Jim, did you try that Malbec I sent you?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Breathe.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Craig, the solution is simple. Go nationwide to the mail in ballot system we have here in Washington (and Oregon). the ballot shows up in the mail. You vote then mail it in. There is a paper trail, there are no lines at the polls and no standing in line (in fact, no polls at all, saving dinero), and, except for the tabulation software, it can't be hacked but can be checked; there are signature records so ballots can be checked for authenticity. One can go on-line and see if their ballot has been counted. Is this so hard to understand?
There should be national voter registration standards, not the state by state mash we now have. The situation in Alabama (where I have family and once lived) is BS. The state closed driver's license bureaus in counties with large black voting populations, then required in person registration making it really difficult for poorer, car-less persons to register; gee, wonder why? Despicable.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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agreed
Federal Standard Mail in ballot
it needs to be unhackable
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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I advocate free speech, just don't say things that are untrue
Should Ann Coulter be allowed to speak at a university-sponsored affair, even if she might say things that you consider untrue? Could you tolerate that or would you resist? If I were to walk to a podium and say that the moon is green cheese, would you tolerate that, or would you resist my efforts and thus deny my right of free speech?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Another thread gets "Fried."
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