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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Feb 24, 2017 - 08:48pm PT
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You'd watch the trains heading to the ovens and swear they were going to the beach resorts.
You'll follow that man anywhere. You're in too deep now to turn back. WTF is Crankl00n talking about? Is this a part of your trust-fund program??
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Feb 24, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
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NutAgain is absolutely right. We are at a critical point. Trump's stated policies perfectly fits the definition of neo-fascism, and control of the press is one of the most important steps in establishing an authoritarian state. If NutAgain hadn't initiated this thread, I would have. Thanks, NA.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Feb 24, 2017 - 09:33pm PT
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Feb 24, 2017 - 09:37pm PT
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Feb 24, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
Then the press is entitled to opine, as well.
Absolutely!
Trump is just echoing what many are just coming to realize: ALL the press does is opine. The era of genuine journalism and news is behind us.
Lots of reasons for that, not the least of which is big-moneyed ownership of the vehicles. But the net effect is that ALL "news" now is editorial spin.
So, sure, it's "free" to be "the press" and spray all it wants.
But we, including Trump, are free to call a spade a spade and want nothing to do with it.
Let's cut to the chase. "fake news" is news that is true, but Conservatives don't want to hear.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Feb 24, 2017 - 09:41pm PT
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NutAgain is absolutely right. We are at a critical point. Trump's stated policies perfectly fits the definition of neo-fascism, and control of the press is one of the most important steps in establishing an authoritarian state. If NutAgain hadn't initiated this thread, I would have. Thanks, NA.
neo-Fascism....haha, throwing that term around again. Clueless.
Trump is not controlling the media. He's telling it to F-0FF! Most citizen's are as well. Love him or not...people are tired of the BS speculative stories/lies.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Feb 24, 2017 - 09:59pm PT
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"That was back in December at a panel sponsored by Politico. At the time, Spicer explained the plan to allow access to all press by saying "That's what makes a democracy a democracy, versus a dictatorship." But today, the WH press office did, in fact, bar specific media outlets"
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
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If Trump had used the power of his office to command our attention, and shared his concerns with who owns various media outlets, what personal agendas they might have, and how that colors the information we have at our disposal, well if Trump had done that my respect would have increased for him. And I would be reevaluate my perceptions of Trump's intentions. But he would paint himself into a corner if he did that, because the same arguments would be used to reject the media outlets that support his viewpoints too.
Also, we don't have to guess at motives or intentions for this selective attack on the press. Steve Bannon spelled it out clearly at the CPAC meeting:
They're corporatist, globally media, that are adamantly opposed, adamantly opposed, to a [sic] economic nationalist agenda like Donald Trump has. President Trump really laid this out, as Reince said, many years ago CPAC, it's really CPAC that originally gave him the springboard.... watch Steve's speech here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/02/23/bannon-trump-administration-is-in-unending-battle-for-deconstruction-of-the-administrative-state
I spent some time reviewing Fascism tonight, and I don't think that's what this movement or administration is about. In my admittedly cursory study of history, it seems that problems are not inherently caused by Fascism, or Communism, or Capitalism, or any other ism. The pattern that emerges in each of these systems in the last few hundred years, is this:
1. lots of unemployment and people suffering
2. some ideology becomes popular among the masses because of promises to resolve the problems, and somewhere at the core is a theme of blaming someone and a protectionist policy is aggressively developed around it
3. the party in power can't honor the economic promises it made in the rise to power, and they attempt to resolve this by creating employment through a war/crisis economy
4. in the march toward totalitarianism (which is justified as cutting red tape, bureaucracy, political roadblocks, obstructionist forces, etc.), freedoms of the press are curtailed, because if people don't know what you are doing, they can't get upset about it or rally in opposition to it.
5. The economic elements of Fascism and Communism and Capitalism are pretty different, but they share the commonality of purporting to solve the plight of the common unemployed people. In the end, the academic arguments are subordinated to the uglier side of humanity, the continual quest for power and control, to improve one's lot at the expense of another. Thus whatever economic context pre-exists the rise of totalitarianism is adapted as a stepping stone toward the consolidation of power. It is this power consolidation that is the biggest enemy of humanity more than any political or economic ideology that we have been taught to demonize.
While the political ideology of Trump and team does not seem to make analogies to Nazism truly apropos, the methods of rising to power and consolidating it bear striking resemblance to any economic system that marches toward a totalitarian state. I'm not a real historian, and I can't draw from a deep well of personally studied examples, but I trust my instincts to analyze systems and human motivations. Feel free to disagree with me, but please use rational arguments and don't cite the failings of other people as justifications for the present failings in our country.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 24, 2017 - 10:45pm PT
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2017 - 11:12pm PT
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I don't know where Cmac draws the line, but I suspect a discussion focusing on government interfering with the press has a better chance of not getting banned than a simple expression of rejection of a specific person, no matter how repugnant we may find them.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 24, 2017 - 11:32pm PT
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We are rapidly headed to a place where it will become dangerous to speak out against the current leader, and it will become more effective to shutup in public, and quietly work against him as anonomously as possible.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 24, 2017 - 11:33pm PT
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The sh!t has been hitting the fan for 40 years now and hasn't let up and you clowns are now aware of the term "Sh!t hitting the fan".
Politards are idiots ......
You think the sh#t has been hitting the fan during your privileged life in America?
Do your attempts at demeaning insults ever get you anywhere?
People like me didn't AT ALL "believe all the BS of the right wing media," and we didn't vote for him for ANY other reason than that you libs couldn't see your way clear to put up ANY other candidate than Clinton.
And you still insist that everybody else was stupid in some way.
Again, I'm a moderate not a "lib". Do see in black and white? Or is "libs" just a convenient way for you to try to marginalize people with different viewpoints in your mind and ignore their valid points? I've read your posts, you seem very intelligent, but it seems you are allowing yourself to believe what you need to believe.
I'm an independent and have only voted for Republicans or Democrats a few times in the course of my life. Given the choice I would not have chosen Hillary as a candidate.
But once it was a choice between Hillary (whose worst issue to me was she used a private email server, like Colin Powell and other SOS BTW, and tried to cover it up, BUT when the emails were found on other people's systems it turned out that so far there were NO emails that showed serious criminality or corruption) vs. Trump who by his own words is a sexist, bigot, demagogue, thin skinned, narcissistic and lies far more often and more seriously than any other politician in recent history. I actually had to vote for Hillary.
I did not want to vote for another Clinton (or any relative or someone who has been in the white house recently). I didn't want to vote for someone who was dishonest. I didn't want to vote for someone who got rich by being involved in government.
But if you can justify all the horrible things Trump has said (and is now doing) because Hillary used a private email server and tried to cover it up, well, yes you are allowing yourself to believe BS.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 25, 2017 - 05:49am PT
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^^^This. ^^^
Frankly, it's utterly pointless discussing anything with trumpkins. Most are brainwashed by breitbart and other fact-averse media bubbles shoveling propaganda at them. It's stupid and sad that they believe this garbage, but they do. Fortunately, most Americans aren't buying it.
Instead, you have to defeat them, and not bother reasoning with them. So roll up your sleeves, get fighting, and gear up for 2018, that is, if the whole Russian/emoluments clause clusterf*#k doesn't cause the whole shitshow to implode before then.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 25, 2017 - 06:54am PT
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No , no implosion
The slow march to blatant (as opposed to opaque) totalitarian-ism will continue
Freedoms lost. . . .
Yes, the very definition of Neo-fascist authoritarian dictatorship
A strident puppet hoisted in to power by shadowy forces with clear goals of world domination
This is the com-upence that the Shadow government Cheeney /rumsfvcker put in place.
The vacuum of 8 yrs of the next puppet has led to a place where the next Mc Namara
Will insist that the strong-man puppet be left in power.
The elections were not free the court gave it away the last free election put the erection
Into the ovum & the old limp prick neo-fascists of the grand 'ole pussy-grabbers sided with the white supremist's & Russians
and bigots got what they were wishing for;
A Fakeer hand job & Blow job in the Oval Office .
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 25, 2017 - 07:28am PT
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Nut, Fet, Fossil, 10b, etc.,
This topic is critically important, but the sad fact is that you're argining with a binch of morons (for lack of a better term) who seem far too interested in arguing against their own best interests. It goes beyond a difference of opinion. It's a different reality to them. They're lost. I've very quickly become too frustrated trying to have a meaningful exchange with them. Good luck. I'm out.
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Norton
Social climber
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Feb 25, 2017 - 08:12am PT
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Let's cut to the chase. "fake news" is news that is true, but Conservatives don't want to hear.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Feb 25, 2017 - 08:19am PT
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Yeah, that happens when, for effect, I temporarily mirror how certain people here "argue."
Okay, but I used to enjoy your posts. I may not have agreed with everything you wrote but you were logical and well-reasoned.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2017 - 08:20am PT
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I am frustrated, as I'm sure people are on all sides. But walking away from the discussion is surrendering to the winds presently steering our country. I am not ok with that.
I have been waking up at night lately, fearful of the future of our country, fearful that the peace and stability and safety that I have always taken for granted within the USA in my lifetime is at risk. I worry about half of our nation owning guns and steeped in the idea of using them to defend themselves, and I worry about those same folks being trained to ignore facts and main-stream media and directly taking instruction from our President or his media mouthpieces who are steeped in rhetoric that plays up the need to use force to defend ourselves. I worry about a culture of well-armed and militarily organized immigration enforcement getting drunk on the power of breaking down doors to get rid of the "bad dudes", and where does that leave or country after this agency likes how it feels to break down millions of doors. Who is next on the list?
The next thing I thought about is how much I have not empathized with the plight of middle America, how they have spent more than a decade waking up from a different type of fear. The fear of their family starving, the fear and indignity of not being able to provide for their family, watching the world run away in growing proserity on TV while their future is bleak and scary. It is a real problem that has not received enough attention or understanding from the Democratic Party, which is one of the factors that led to where we are. There was and still is a degree of arrogance among Democrats that start by assuming their strategy is in the best interest of all these suffering unemployed people, and it seems logical that these people would support what is in their own interests. One mistake is assuming that people automatically understand the connection between their individual plights and the national policies, and another mistake is sending a mixed message by relying on corporate money and big donors to propagate the honest message.
In any case, many Americans have been living in fear for a long time, and because their concerns have not been addressed in a reasonable and direct way, they have become vulnerable to a blatantly false hope of economic prosperity, and this has become a Trojan Horse to bring in a slew of frightening ideologies that run counter to the American Dream and the vision that has sustained our country for centuries.
So all this lashing out at "stupid Republicans" and name calling and preparing for a big fight against our fellow citizens is climbing a ladder leading against the wrong wall. Think about where we want to end up, and realize that we can't get there by trying to force half the country to submit to a different will. The only reasonable solution will come from convincing people what is better for us all, by discussing with each other to really understand our different problems and perspectives and finding a framework that works for as many people as possible.
Fighting with force and planning to exclude a big part of our society from the vision seems like the easier and more effective path, but this ends with us just as guilty of creating a tyranny as that which many of us presently fear. The roots of authoritarianism are not the exclusive property of right-wing folks. Right or left can lead to the same outcome, and to fend this off we need to avoid demonizing people, avoid making scapegoats, and concentrate our attention on what we need in our society to make life better for as many of us as possible.
It seems that focusing on what we DO want is more productive and effective than focusing on what we DON'T want. There needs to be a constructive vision to rally around.
Having a plurality of media voices with widespread access to the information emanating from our government, seems to be a critical pillar of serving the interests of as many people as possible. I want prosperity for us all, I want a vigorous debate of ideas but I don't want to be at war with Republicans or Trumpers or conservatives or whatever label you want. Those labels are the way of turning us against each other when we all are at risk and we all just want to have better lives for ourselves and our families.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Feb 25, 2017 - 08:25am PT
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Sure, POTUS has the same freedom of speech as the rest of us, but his responsibility to exercise that freedom is in proportion to the reach of his words. His calling free press the enemy of the people is not yet the equivalent of shouting fire in a theater, but it is coming closer. Suppose some right wing nutcase starts shooting up CNN offices? Suppose someone shoots an immigrant, just because he looks middle eastern...
HRC is not, has never been and will never be POTUS. This is not about HRC, and this is not about partisan politics. These threads and protests would not be happening if Bush, Kasich, Cruz or similar had won. This is about the dangers of having an unstable thin skinned moron in the White House, and having a spineless congress unwilling to do anything about it.
Partisan politics is arguing about the best road to take to the same crag, or perhaps what's the best climb when we get there. Electing trump is like asking someone who's never driven a car to drive us there, even though he really plans to go to another crag. Like asking someone who's only ever ridden a motorbike and crashed that six times. The question now is how to get him out of the driver seat with only a few dings before he drives the car off a cliff. The replacement driver takes a crazy road to the crag, but he's at least trying to bring us to the same place and has a vague idea of how to do it.
TE
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 25, 2017 - 10:01am PT
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More of the bread crumbs I have been finding scattered among Twitter Feeds:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/there-s-more-to-the-michael-cohen-story
Excerpt from article that would best be read in the whole to place into context, and it should be duly noted (before someone points it out suggesting I either have poor reading comprehension skills or "only see what I want to see") that the author says straight out that, being fairly unfamiliar with Ukraine and the country's language, he isn't able to verify the content on his own.
And then there's this.
Artemenko told Strana.ua that this wasn't the first time they'd talked about the "peace plan." He says that he was discussing the peace plan with Cohen and Sater “at the time of the primaries, when no one believed that Trump would even be nominated.”
So at least according to Artemenko, discussions about the "peace plan" go back to the first half of 2016.
That's interesting.
There is another link within the article, that includes this little bit:
Artemenko said his plan would let Ukrainian voters decide in a referendum whether to lease Crimea to Russia for a term of 50 or 100 years, according to the New York Times.
I have thought this before and it has been laughed off by people who know more on the subject, that Russia has figured out a way to physically alter election results. I posit that they first did it for the Brexit vote, and then the US presidential(and possibly a few GOP down the ladder), and that they were/are intending to do it with this Ukrainian referendum mentioned above.
Why? Because(and it has been stated in reliable accounts several times) they want a less "Western-centric" political/economic world. (end of what has been stated, and now back to my opinion)
They are sick of being looked at as the bad guy, when they have so much to offer, and want their seat at the Big Person's table during holiday feasts. Trashing NATO was/is one step in the strategy. Screwing GB was a big win for the strategy, and IF they put Trump in place, and the things that it is really beginning to look like he was involved with over the years are accurate, that was also a very important accomplishment towards the goal.
Donald Trump has joked meanly about the DNC and their lack of an adequate firewall for the servers. He had better hope he has a much more robust one in place for his personal protection.
Satter will talk, when it becomes clear he is a dead man either way, because that's how people behave when grasping at last hopes for survival, even when those hopes are no longer rational. And when he tells what he knows - IF he hasn't already! - the rest of the pieces in the puzzle fall into place. The only way out is for Satter to run and hide. Maybe that will happen - hopefully there are some good eyes being kept on him.
And for those who want to wail "That's not proof!" No sh#t, sherlock. If it was proof it would be already old news and DT would be crying "I was framed" from a cell, and Melania would be crying "He's left me with no way to support myself and my child(which, unfortunately will be true, as his assets will be frozen, and I have zero doubt that the man is brutally cruel enough to have the back doors and offshores locked tight with no hidden key left for wife number three.).
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