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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Dec 10, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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Thanks Kevin for clarifying what I was trying to say.
I still have to completely disagree with Karl. How is unprotected 5.9 on a 5.11 route any different than popular easier climbs such as Hobbit Book or dozens upon dozens of other routes one could name. On all of these types of routes, where the run out sections are on far easier (but still 5th class ground), a slip or rockfall from above, could mean a very long fall on featured and less forgiving terrain.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 10, 2006 - 02:54pm PT
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jhedge, this is soley about a restoration effort. You need to open your mind to that concept and let go of the style issue for these particular projects. You're totally missing the point here. The guys offering to do this work have already done the route.
The quality of experience of the work crew seeking to restore the fixed protection doesn't in any way, shape, or form have anything to do with the style used by the FA. The proposed route maintenance is about results, not about adventure or challenge.
Although some work parties may elect to do anchor work GU, this is by no means necessary, and it sets no precedent. It's irrelevant to the FA; it's simply a restoration job ideally agreed to by the community and all involved.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 10, 2006 - 03:46pm PT
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jhedge, What don't you understand about repair versus an FA? The distinction is clear. You obviously have reading comprehension issues. There is no controversy here. It appears that you are still drowning....
There's plenty of controversy surrounding establishing a new route on rap and retrobolting. These maintenance and restoration projects are neither! These projects are an entirely separate case and stand alone.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 10, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
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well, the distinction between an FA and a repair is clear, but I think joe has a valid point of view. Why should the rules be any different? The rationale is that it's for safety. Well, if safety is now a justification, I don't see why that can't be extended beyond...
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 10, 2006 - 03:59pm PT
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See ya! You're also starting to sound trollish.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 10, 2006 - 04:04pm PT
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Ok. I'm just saying what you guys seem to be suggesting. Style is paramount, except when it isnt.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 10, 2006 - 04:10pm PT
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You guys are total morons.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 10, 2006 - 04:15pm PT
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oh yes. not a moron. a total moron.
thanks for your poignant insight mimi.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 10, 2006 - 04:21pm PT
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mimi, i'm speaking from personal experience here, trying to intelligently discuss an issue with joe -- on the internet, anyway -- is like trying to shovel water against an incoming tide. a waste of effort with no hope of success.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2006 - 08:57pm PT
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I think Joe has some very valid points that only miss (intentionally) one main thing.
The thing is that our ethics aren't logical or consistent. They are like our ethics about Sex. They are culture and vary from place to place. Those who are inside the culture know the unwritten rules and what you can get away with and what will make a scandal.
That doesn't make it consistent, wise, reasonable or unreasonable.
So it's food for thought, even if we decide, because we all know what flys or not, that it's fine to rap bolt for the maintenence of the route. Perhaps someday something else will be the culture and we can all whine about it like old codgers
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2006 - 09:21pm PT
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"I still have to completely disagree with Karl. How is unprotected 5.9 on a 5.11 route any different than popular easier climbs such as Hobbit Book or dozens upon dozens of other routes one could name. On all of these types of routes, where the run out sections are on far easier (but still 5th class ground), a slip or rockfall from above, could mean a very long fall on featured and less forgiving terrain."
Because the issue at hand concerned "most climbers" Just like unprotected 5.12 on a 5.14 route would be a deal-killer of many.
You can sling some dinner plates on Hobbit Book and the climbing is much easier so "most climbers" have a better chance, but plenty of climbers avoid the Hobbit Book cause it wouldn't be a fair gamble when you have kids and aren't honed.
I'm not saying the Space Babble should be changed. Just that it will remain a mostly elite climb and it's denial to claim otherwise.
Peace
karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2006 - 10:36pm PT
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NO .....
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 11, 2006 - 11:59am PT
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There is no hypocrisy, just your need to jump around farting and waving your arms and yelling, "I am here, look, I am really here!"
Figure out where you stand or swim and be genuine. In the meantime, how about thinking more and spraying less.
Incidentally, challenging your ill-formed and baseless position does not amout to facism.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 11, 2006 - 10:42pm PT
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All I was doing was turning the argument against itself
pretty f*#kin lame logic, which is why people tried to show you the right way to pull, so your head would come out of your ass and youd still have ears....apparently, it didnt work though
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 12, 2006 - 11:39am PT
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Or you could try allowing your head to proceed in the other direction until you turn inside out! At this point you might end up as a bold, thoughtful and articulate trad climber with something meaningful to say. But there are other ways short of the bunghole inversion lobotomy worth considering.............
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 12, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
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actually, I think it's quite telling by how worked up and sputtering mad a couple guys got when confronted with the idea... from a couple sport climbers. too rich.
just remember, 'how the bolt got there isn't important. So long as it's a good route.'
hahahaha
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Dec 12, 2006 - 03:45pm PT
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Sorry but you still don't get it. How the bolt got PLACED the FIRST TIME matters a lot. How the bolt got RE-PLACED doesn't matter, we're just happy someone went to the trouble to do some maintenance.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 12, 2006 - 03:53pm PT
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Bingo G_Gnome!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 13, 2006 - 11:42am PT
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If the idea was to stupidly provoke a response here, well you got your tiny but exciting moment. But now that you have established beyond a reasonable doubt that you are an ass, well, we are entitled to ride you around for a while, just for fun.
G Gnome- rising above the cesspool, a single clear thought shining like a beacon of hope!!!
If you feel the need to be phoney here on ST, you get what's coming.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 13, 2006 - 12:28pm PT
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Hey, anything for fun!
Anyway, good luck with the pin bolts, I hope they work out.
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