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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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These ol' white christians are gonna be bummed when my god shows up.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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this nation was founded on core judeo-christian ideas:
Dead.Wrong.
the recognition not simply of the rights of the individual (the greeks introduced this idea), but, more profoundly, the sanctity of the individual; the idea that every single man, woman, and child (including those in the womb) has value regardless of ability, heritage, race, religion, etc.
Are you insane? Our founding fathers owned slaves and women weren't allowed to vote. You're kidding right?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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The whole of Western politcal philosophy is based on the Social Contract, and therefore every Western country was or is founded in these principles.
Dead. Right.
Which makes us a Greek Nation...uh oh.
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Sanskara
climber
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Wait for it a couple minutes in. Should it be in one of the gun nut threads?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
And I believed in god, well maybe not your god but I don't believe we control as much as most arrogant men would like to think they do.
If you listen close and really pay attention you will see and feel a cosmic hum that ties everything together and makes it one. You have to listen real close though and be willing to take a big step back from all the distractions. You know kinda like when you are mid pitch climbing and the rest of the world just slips away.
And yes I still believe we were born of atoms. I don't believe there will be a second coming of anything. The only thing sinking this ship or saving it from sinking is us stupid stupid men. And women sorry..
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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america is the only nation founded on judeo-christian principals
1) the source of our rights: NOT granted by a government of men but "endowed by our creator"; that means our rights PRECEDE the government and, therefore, SUPERCEDE our government; the idea that government has as its primary function the protection of our rights
2) not simply the recognition of the individual (which the greeks introduced) but the profound acknowledgement that every man, woman, and child (including those in the womb) has value that, again, precedes society
3) the inversion of millenia of social structure, giving power to the governed and taking it away from the government...the "meek", if you will
imagine donini, what if we reject the idea of a creator, what do we have left? just another government empowered to determine what rights we should be allowed to have...the government powerful enough to give you what you want is powerful enough to take it away--tj
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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...what do we have left? just another government empowered to determine what rights we should be allowed to have....
Only a Christian would come to that conclusion. Because, like the religious peoples of the 18th Century, you cannot even comprehend a world without a god.
Open your mind. The Social Contract is still entirely valid if you reject the idea of a creator. What you are left with is simply the idea that all men are equal with the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
You see, it still works just fine without god.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Great thread Donini
BBST motherfvcker
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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.....excepting women, black men, Indians, and the French. and homosexuals and atheists and Muslims......
Plenty of "categories" of humans are left out by too many "Christians"
The new Pope seems to have gotten his funny hat right way on. We'll see how much he can push back the Church curtains of silence and bigotry.
Will there be women Cardinals in my lifetime? I doubt it.
When 1/2 the Cardinals are women, then the Catholic Church will have some authority about women's reproduction.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Wade*,
I'm doing paid work today, but I'll try to respond this evening. Other than you, though, I see no other interest in my reply.
John
*Or should it be Way?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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FortMental: Per your request:
Bookworm...please provide the entire list of books from which you get your facts.
All two of them.
Unfortunately Bookworm lost his library in a tragic fire.
yep!
Both books burned,
Worse yet,
One hadn't even been colored in.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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or was that "nattering nabobs of negativism" Agnew?
Although Nixon initially liked and respected Agnew, as time progressed he felt his vice president lacked the intelligence and vision, particularly in foreign affairs, to sit in the Oval Office
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Bookie... you have bailed on the abortion thread YOU started, because you were obviously getting your butt kicked there. Now you hop onto this thread to shed yet more darkness here.
You are no thinker, so quit pontificating like one. You have yet to make a reasoned case on ANY subject.
Regarding the social contract, if you want to debate on that one, it's gonna be yet another ugly blowout, like on the abortion thread. Just as on the subject of abortion, you are entirely unread and untutored on this subject as well.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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“There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.”
― George Washington
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
― George Washington
Dean, what say you to that last quote?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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JEleazarian, I don't know if I'd waste my time. This thread contains some of the best examples of meaningless spray I've seen in quite a while.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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(including those in the womb)
And this where your trolling trash gets shown up as such. Because NO WHERE in the founding documents is there any reference to this. NO WHERE.
But that doesn't stop you from adding it in.
Did what you say also apply to slave unborn fetuses?
Has there been a single legal case in the entire history of the country that demonstrates that protection to slave unborn fetuses?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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JEleazarian, I don't know if I'd waste my time.
John E treats people on this forum -- whatever their views on climbing, religion, or politics -- with respect. In return, he is treated with great respect not just by those who agree with him, but by all.
If he were to make the effort to provide the reasoning behind his religious views, I suspect the response would be respectful. I also suspect that if someone harshed on him, that someone would get slapped by the rest of us very quickly.
This is not an effort to try to persuade John to wade in, but rather to point out that there is a reason why some people are treated rudely while others are treated with respect.
Edit to add: Same goes for you Lynne. You don't ever crap on people simply because they disagree with you, and therefore you are treated well. In fact there are a lot of us who take that approach. Most of what makes ST ugly comes from just a handful of people.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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I dunno, Lynne....this thread contains some of the best-articulated & relatively respectful positions on the subject than I've seen at ST in some time. Perhaps it is you that finds those positions discomforting or threatening?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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I usually refrain from contradicting bookworm as It would occupy my entire day.
america is the only nation founded on judeo-christian principals Let's parse that very popular bit of nonsense a bit.
"only"
that's an extremely broad claim.
"founded"
OK, if you want an extremely literal definition, most nations existing today outside of Africa and South America existed long before we did and weren't really founded. They evolved into existence. Certainly most nations since have been "founded", usually by their African and South American colonial masters. Think Kenya, India, Pakistan, Chile, etc etc
But let's stop parsing the ridiculous claim.
England, France, Russia, etc etc etc evolved with direct involvement of the prominent church of the time. England still respects (as in the 1st Amendment meaning) the Church of England/Anglican Church. That is likely to change in the near future.
Your claim is another blatantly ignorant America is #1 fairy tale. We were founded on the English principles of justice and law (Bill of Rights, 1689) which were specifically Protestant. Remember Henry VIII? Probably not.
How many Jews can you find in the founding fathers? There are more deists/agnostics/atheists.
A more rational claim is we were the first modern nation founded on the principle that the state must not respect any religion. But let's not bother with the facts. They're often so inconvenient.
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