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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 12, 2006 - 01:12am PT
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It seems like you just can't face reality Lois.
Do you remember why we attacked Iraq the first time? Remember many, many tens if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died and most of the world thought it was a just war.
It was because they invaded Kuwait without sufficient cause. (They said the Kuwaitis were slant drilling into their oil fields and because Kuwait was historically part of Iraq befoe colonialism)
Did you think the punishment of Iraq was just. We smashed the place.
Let's say, fair enough, they invaded aggressively and that's not OK
So now, perhaps you'd care to name what punishment the US is due for invading Iraq 10 years later without sufficient cause?
Just a shug of the shoulders I suppose? Cause we're different. Other counties can aggressively invade and meddle and we destroy them and threaten them with nukes, but we can do the same thing with impunity.
It's not about masochism, its about opening your eyes and facing reality from all perspectives. Innocent people die on both sides when terrorists and nations strike out in response to past harms
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 12, 2006 - 01:56am PT
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And Lois, you are an ignorant blind fool who can't read or understand.
Do a search of the word "deserve" in this thread and see who has used it. I never have.
The people in the towers did not "deserve" to die.
neither did the people in Iraq.
We don't deserve to have our government overthrown with foreign support and replaced with a dictatorship like happen in Iran.
They didn't deserve it either.
To say we should ignore the actions of our government because to censure them would lack self respect is madness. Under such a scenario who would stop a Hitler from rising up to become president and cancelling democracy. All the puppets would say "we have to support the president in times of war, freedom has to give way to security"
I never said deserve.
Want some "deserves"
Saddam derserves the death penalty for his crimes and so do Bush/Cheney and Bin Laden
Let's give credit where it is due.
Quit the double standards, punish the guilty on both sides.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 12, 2006 - 02:54am PT
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Hey Jody
Bush has killed far more folks than Bin Laden and increasing evidence shows it wasn't an unintentional mistake. He planned to invade Iraq long before 9-11.
And he might catch up with Saddam's numbers if he was in office 30 years.
Saddam is on trial with the death penalty cause he killed about 150 folks in some village where they attempted to assassinate him. How many folks did the US kill in Falluja after those 3 contractors were burned?
The penalty for starting an aggressive unjust war should be death. Bush only had support because he lied to everyone about the evidence and he still had all this blind support for action after 9-11
Maybe he doesn't deserve the death penalty but I think the war crimes trial at someplace independent like the Hague ought to decide.
Oh, i forgot, might makes right, so Bush never would have to visit the Hague but lesser leaders do
Peace
Karl
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Degaine
climber
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Jul 12, 2006 - 03:55am PT
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Lois,
You have me confused with someone else. I never wrote anything you've referenced or credited to me in your last few posts. Our exchanged finished up a while ago.
In my last post (before this one), I poked fun at Patrick for answering his own questions.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jul 12, 2006 - 07:25am PT
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LEB,
your american exceptionalism is sooo obvious, and your wind is quite long.
just because some are willing to state the facts that are not pleasant to hear does not mean one is a terrorist lover. maybe you could use some historical perspective, that way when you use words like "terrorist", the meaning will have to include more than just our current boogieman. you can start w/what u.s. corporate interests did in latin america over the last few decades.
it's emotional reaction like yours that allow atrocities to occur time and time again
in the name of things like "freedom", "democracy", and "progress". you would have been right at home with Der Fuhrer.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 12, 2006 - 08:54am PT
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Yeah, Degaine, and I don't even know ya', I think. Now I'll go cry in my Guinness. ;-)
BTW is that Annecy, France? Lovely place.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 12, 2006 - 09:22am PT
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So Jody
If you pulled over some guy with an AK 47 and he said, "I just mowed down 20 people, some were kids. I think they were out to get me." What would you charge him with?
Mabye I exaggerated to make a point and maybe I didn't.
An investigation that isn't a whitewash to get the facts about how and why we went to war is needed to see the extent of how we, and our troops, have been abused by the adminstration.
But the point is about "American Exceptionalism" which, for the uninitiated, means that Americans have assumed that because we're so wonderful, special and just, that it's OK for us to develop and mass produce WMDs and even use them, OK of us to invade and bomb counties with little or false justification, Ok for us to violate the very principles we claim to be upholding in our "World Policing"
It applies to doubles standards we apply to our allies and well. North Korea tests a missile and develops nukes...we say that's terrible and a threat to the world and call for Sanctions. India develops nukes and tests a missile later in the week. No problem, we're planning on accepting their nuclear weapons and have a plan to support and supply the civilain side of their nuke program while ignoring the military side.
The world is never going to buy our rhetoric when we clearly fail to walk our walk.
and if you read the polls of world opinion, we're not fooling anyone. That's part of the reason we're not getting those UN votes noted in the OP.
We're a wonderful, big, powerful country that could observe the same rules that we expect others to.
I really have one and only one point to my posts and my morality.
That is the golden rule.
We should act as we expect others to act. We should put ourselves in the other guy's shoes when judging the morality of any action. If the action can stand the test of still being fair if the roles are switched, it's fair enough for me.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 12, 2006 - 09:35am PT
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This thread is starting to kill my dialup. Maybe if we should forget it or somebody start an extension.
Me, I'm going climbing for awhile and won't have time to spend yakking as much
peace
Karl
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 12, 2006 - 02:06pm PT
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Any measure of loyalty is a very foreign concept to many of the posters who condemn our position. They can only espouse their hatred of their country its government/leaders because they do, in fact, live here. They utilize the protection they enjoy here to condemn the very government which permits them to mouth off as they please. And they take it one step further and justify the actions of those who attempt to dissolve our way of life.
Lois, you almost have me speechless with that, it is so ignorant and so stupid and in some ways I have come to expect better of you, because while you may be ignorant on some things, you don’t strike me as being stupid.
But I am not speechless. If you want to label people who disagree with this administration’s policies, the neo-con agenda and your own views as being against their country, then that is your hang up and your ignorance.
I do not think there is one poster on this thread who is anti-American – anti-Bush, perhaps, but that is not the same, though some commentators would have you believe otherwise. I have never called Mountain Man, Jody, Chaz, you or anyone anti-American, not that I can recall at least.
I appreciate that you have your views, though I may disagree with them, but we all have a right to air them.
If you really think people like me are anti-American, that is your mistake. It doesn’t bother me all that much (but a bit, admittedly) at the end of the day because I know you are wrong in believing that and I know I love my country, which is why I’d like to see it do the right thing and stick to its values, not trash them like Bush and cronies have. In my opinion, it is to your detriment that you take such a simplistic and naïve view.
You write that when somebody can’t present a valid argument (in your eyes) that they resort to name calling. My observations are that that when people who have swallowed the Bush (& Co) BS – hook, line and sinker – and can’t present a logical response to somebody who challenges their position, that they resort to calling people anti-American. Grow up, the lot of you.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 12, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
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Fattrad, funny isn't it, as I think that you are somewhat naive, or at least have swallowed the neo-con agenda big time. You admit to being a neo-conservative (not much different than being a neo-liberal).
Or perhaps you aren’t naïve, which means then that you are disingenuous. And you seem to have this intense hatred of Muslims, and not just the leaders. Go back and read the numerous post you have put up. They border on hate and racism.
I am not naïve that there are some people in the Islamic world seeking to re-establish a grand Caliphate. I am aware that there are too many Islamists who seek to either convert or kill infidels like me (and if any Islamist or Christian or scientologist or Jew or whatever ever tries to convert me against my will, then my pacifism will be tested mighty sorely).
But I have met and worked with more than just a few Muslims in my time and the vast majority of them are not anti-American, though some are frustrated and unhappy with certain American policy and actions. Most of them are moderate, unless events and policies drive them into the hands of the nutters and fundamentalists.
If you really want there to be a war, that is sad, and that does appear to be what you want. You don’t believe in Rapture do you? Just asking. ;-)
Lois, sigh. I might as well be talking to a brick wall.
Why do you go join what's his name, you are beginning to get tiresome, and I use to like your contributions, now all you want to do is say that I and others hate America. Sad, really.
Maybe you should learn how to climb.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 12, 2006 - 02:45pm PT
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It was a nice effort though, Patrick.
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Jul 12, 2006 - 03:10pm PT
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It's fascinating that this should come out of Europe. Mathias Dapfner, Chief Executive of the huge German publisher Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack in DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily paper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat. Sorry if this is kind of long, but I thought you'd find it interesting and a relevant addition to this thread:
EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE (Commentary by Mathias Dapfner CEO, Axel Springer, AG)
A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.
Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives, as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.
Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe, where for decades, inhuman suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.
Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.
Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European Appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.
Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U.N. Oil-for-Food program.
And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement. How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic Fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany?
I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists. One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler and declaring European "Peace in our time".
What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.
It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness. Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for Anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.
His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against Democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.
In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China.
On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance", which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes. Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.
For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything.
While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation... Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive".
These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.
Appeasement?
Europe, thy name is Cowardice.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 12, 2006 - 03:48pm PT
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It's fascinating that this should come out of Europe.
Why, Mimi? Oh, I see, yeah those unwashed lefties that live in Europe.
Jody, cut the anti-American stuff out. It's getting real old. If you want to insult me, at least insult me with something that has truth to it. Something like, “a piss poor climber” (yeah, my bank balance does suck). “Can’t even make it up El Cap” (one attempt on the Salathe in 1976 and the two clowns I was with bailed, I wanted to go on, so what am I batting 0 for 1?). “Fat and balding”, true, the fat bit I am working on but with my finances Rogaine is out of the picture. “Stinks of garlic all the time”, at least that’s what my editor says, but I guess it is true. “Drinks too much wine”, wait a minute, that’s an insult? “Drinks too much cheap rot gut wine”, unfortunately that’s back to my poor finances.
So what have we? “Patrick, you are a fat and balding piss poor climber who can’t even make it up El Cap, you stink of garlic and drink too much cheap rot gut wine.”
Thanks Jody, now I’ll go cry in my Guinness. Boo hoo.
But I have asked this before on the forum. Does the East Buttress (1976 or was it 1975? ask Jim Keating, he may remember) count as climbing El Cap, and can I then say that I have climbed El Cap (which I have never said). I mean pitch wise, isn’t almost as long as some of the aid routes a bit to the west (sort of), such as Zodiac, Lost in America or Shortest Straw?
Anyway, I know that I am not comparing like with like, and I will never say I have climbed Cap until I have done the Nose or Salathe or a similar route (fingers crossed). BTW, on the SuperTaco photo of where/what the routes are on El Cap, what is Route 31? Anybody?
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Jul 12, 2006 - 03:51pm PT
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Aren't most or all climbers "kooks?" Thanks for the compliment.
After reading/engaging in these political threads long enough to get many poster's views, I don't think they're really anti-American. They're just pissed about the neo-Con cabal that's pulling many of the strings right now, like the big one that many believe put us in Iraq. Fortunately, I believe that this cabal is not bigger than the U.S. and what our country represents.
I'd like to hear what you all think of the future of the Project for the New American Century after this administration leaves. I don't see it continuing into the next administration even if a Repub wins again. Thoughts?
Peace, Mimi
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 12, 2006 - 04:02pm PT
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Fortunately, I believe that this cabal is not bigger than the U.S. and what our country represents. Gawd, I hope you are correct Mimi. Let’s hope no cabal, left or right, is big enough.
I'd like to hear what you all think of the future of the Project for the New American Century after this administration leaves. I don't see it continuing into the next administration even if a Repub wins again. Thoughts?
PNAC may survive if you are wrong about that cabal not being big enough, but I agree, these kinds of organizations, think tanks and all (left of right) are never bigger than the collective whole of America and tend to discredit themselves in the end.
The truth will out. I have always believed that.
EDIT
Well said Locker.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jul 12, 2006 - 04:47pm PT
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"Lois, sigh. I might as well be talking to a brick wall."
congratulations on finally reaching this epiphany.
just compare the time she is willing to on and on about her "gut feelings" (which are so clearly sound-bite-media driven drivel) and the time she is willing to invest in educating herself in any other way than reading stupidtopo. more comical than even judy or fatso, if you ask me. to top it all off she has a little teacher/student crush on ragmeat- ewww- 'nuf said.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 12, 2006 - 07:01pm PT
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You are exactly correct on why the US is in Iraq, another reason to add to the list is a long term engagement to moderate Islam.
Of course. I find that filling a significant portion of a population, and then impoverishing the rest tends to do a great job of moderating people!
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jul 12, 2006 - 07:11pm PT
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lois- i don't argue with you, so your post goes almost unread (like all those books...). so yeah, anyway, if you feel disrespected and written off, it's most likely because i wrote you off long ago and i don't respect you. consider it immature if you like, as i could care less. you bore me, you are tiresome, and if we were at the same campfire i'd either find another one or inspire you to do the same. go hand feed some coyotes or something, cause i coud care less what you think of global politics.
"How can I possibly take anything you say seriously or even consider your points when everything out of your mouth (or should I say keyboard) always boils down to your hurling insults of one form or another when you disagree with me or someone else"
go back to your early posts when i and others gave you the benifit of the doubt. that does not continue indefinately. those i insult have generally earned and deserve the large majority of what they get from me- yourself included.
ps- a crush is a crush is a crush, i'm sure those sex starved teachers in the news for getting it on w/ 14 year olds are also feeling like their instincts are maternal on some level. good luck w/ yer issues.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jul 12, 2006 - 07:23pm PT
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^^^
hey everyone, check out louis impersonating anyone on fox news!
you all hate america!
and you're not nice neither!
if i were gawd almighty i'd sentence you to come back in the next life as a palestinian, or a somalian, or evena mexican, for that matter.
hey, i figured out why there are no other housewives like you on this 'cite', it's cause they are all in BOOK clubs! (i'll bet you have neighbors who do that sort of thing)
edit-
karl, you f*#king pinko commie prick! an america hater? i had no idea! that's it pal, our little friendship from afar is off for good! do you burn flags? do you spit on veterans? do you abort partially born fetuses? do you covet virgins? and of course your neighbors' wives? you probably don't even believe the ten commandments should be in court houses and schools all across this god blessed country of ours, do you!?! typical f*#king subversive asswipe! i am just so glad that louis was brave enough to call a spade a spade and call you to the carpet! it's people like you that told the rest of the world that we were torturing people who might have known the next door neighbor of a terrorists's dentist's 2nd cousin! we might be able to stop the next 9/11 with that intel, but you america haters are all about suing the bush administration and letting the torture cat out of the bag! and what about the banks? they would never have remembered that bush said we were following their finances if the NYT hadn't said the same thing 3 years later! you probably actually READ that piece of sh#t newspaper, gawd i have just about had it over here!!!! i am gonna have a cold one down at the white people's bar.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jul 12, 2006 - 07:37pm PT
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reposted:
"go back to your early posts when i and others gave you the benifit of the doubt. that does not continue indefinately. those i insult have generally earned and deserve the large majority of what they get from me- yourself included."
i am too bored w/ you to search for and repost your many early ST posts about all things political, but they were beautifully pathetic, and can easily be paraphrased:
"please explain this complex cultural and political issue to me (again and again, etc., ad naseum), but i am too busy a person to read anything that will give me perspective or true understanding, i'd really just like for a ST poster to explain it all to me, as that is about the sum of my overall thirst for knowledge on this or any other matter"
think of me like the seinfeld soup nazi:
NO RESPECT FOR YOU!
my final response to you and anything to do with you:
yaaaaaaawn.....
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