Haul Lords: rate my 2:1 ratchet

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Moof

Big Wall climber

Orygun

May 14, 2013 - 12:09am PT

Being a full haz-bin climber unable to do much more than muster one aid farce a year, I am already pretty well out of man points...

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

May 14, 2013 - 12:52am PT

Man points! ROFL

Good on ya for bringing perspective, Mark.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

May 15, 2013 - 01:18pm PT

Fred Kida 1979 from an ebay listing.

Why settle for less? LOL

Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber

Cedar Rapids, Iowa

May 15, 2013 - 11:56pm PT

Seriously been working on this last weekend but took no pictures. All I can say is that I've learned a ton and will continue to practice.

At first, when I read and responded to the OP, I was thinking in terms of something Weld-It-like, pictured below:

Those rigging plates are nice, but the system doesn't need all that and we don't need to carry the weight.

So, I followed the instructions up thread and set up the 2:1 system. I spent a great deal of time trying out various lengths of loops for the pulleys and only then started to see what the HL's were talking about with respect to minimizing stuff that can stretch, but still allowing for that important freedom of movement. In the maple tree in our backyard I tried the haul setup low to the ground, and then up about 20 feet so that I could practice making the adjustment on the pull cord and trying the sit down ratchet.

I'll set it up again in the next few days and take some photos.

Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber

Cedar Rapids, Iowa

May 17, 2013 - 08:38am PT

This is the ground training area.

I also tried from the top of the ladder to give me some practice on setup with something to stand on vs hanging in harness. As mentioned up-thread, stance makes a difference, and adjusting the orange (zed) cord with clove hitch to 2 carabiners a nice trick for being able to break the knot if it gets too tight.

Again, I had the wrong idea at the beginning of this tread and learned a lot from this review of information that is in many different threads here on ST and elsewhere like mountainproject.com .

So, I hope my 2:1 haul rig rates okay. It has some problems: fixe pulley at top of 2:1 is too small (should replace with something like the rescue pulley), and the mini traxion at the bottom of the 2:1 is not used for rope capture and should be replaced with a non-capture pulley (like the fixe).

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

May 17, 2013 - 09:54am PT

Yup, you're getting it. Replace those pulleys with ones with bigger sheaves, practice a bit and you'll be set.

julton

climber

May 17, 2013 - 10:36am PT

It sounds like you are body hauling on the Zed line via the clove hitch to 2 biners? Why not use your other Jumar?

I think the problem with a jumar on the zed cord would be the extra weight and maybe it moves too easily.

I don't understand this response. A jumar won't slip and isn't heavy enough to matter in the haul. So why not use a jumar to adjust the length of the Zed line? That's what I've always done when hauling 1:1.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

May 17, 2013 - 10:57am PT

The adjustment on the Zed cord is not dynamic, meaning once you have the Zed cord set to the correct length for that current situation, it stays that length for the entire hauling session.
You might get in a situation where your waist comes right up to the top pulley, a situation where the length of a biner and an ascender would be in the way.

In reality, two people of the same approximate size, on a typical hanging anchor, will probably just grab the biners where they were left on the Zed cord from the last haul and use that length. Max and I always leave a biner on the Zed cord and typically, finding the perfect pull length, takes only a minute or two.

Watching that vid of me hauling a bit up thread may clear up your question.

WBraun

climber

May 17, 2013 - 11:07am PT

What a mess.

It can be simplified with one double sheave pulley on top.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

May 17, 2013 - 11:11am PT

3:1 using only the rope.

3:1 Chongo Method

My current haul kit.

You all should just cut right to the chase, and set it up exactly as I have it here. I've hauled hundreds of pitches with it and it's as good a set up as it gets.

BTW, my Zed cord is some Spectra/Kevlar 5 mil that I bought at the Mountain Shop a few years ago. I've used it on five walls since then and it looks brand new.

rockgymnast

Trad climber

Virginia

May 17, 2013 - 11:18am PT

Has anyone every experimented with or used an "inverted piggy back" pulley system (it is a variation of the Spanish Burton pulley system)?

I came across this pulley system in the Ontario Rock Climbing Association Safety Manual. It has a theoretical 3:1 mechanical advantage, using the same number of pulleys as the shown 2:1 system.

I have attached a crude diagram.

Is it a viable system or is it overly complicated?

franky

Trad climber

Bishop, CA

May 17, 2013 - 01:34pm PT

Y'all should learn the T-Method of rating pulley systems, it works pretty well and can be learned pretty fast.

John Mac

Trad climber

Littleton, CO

May 17, 2013 - 02:23pm PT

So why don't people use the double sheave system like Werner suggests?

Thanks for the photos Mark!

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

May 17, 2013 - 03:27pm PT

With a double sheave pulley as your top pulley you would have the Zed cord running through it and also the haul line, down to maybe an inverted ascender.

It's not a bad idea but it increases the size and weight of the system you have to carry needlessly. You would be taking a larger pulley to give you good efficiency for your Zed cord but it would be far more than you need for the haul line. I personally don't lead with my ascenders so there is that I'd have to carry also. One ascender is far heavier than one Micro Trax.

Rockgymnast, overly complicated. 3:1 hauling is needed in only the most dire situations.

Franky, I'd like to hear about that.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

May 17, 2013 - 05:07pm PT

"You all should just cut right to the chase, and set it up exactly as I have it here. I've hauled hundreds of pitches with it and it's as good a set up as it gets."

Concur.

Bill - from the looks of your photo it appears as though you could replace your turquoise sling with a carabiner, like Mark has done in his photo. [He doesn't have it assembled in his photo, but you can see the components]

There is no twist in your turquoise sling - which I assume to be non-stretch Spectra which will still stretch a bit on you on you - and it looks like everything will still fit together nicely if it's replaced with a crab.

"BTW, my Zed cord is some Spectra/Kevlar 5 mil that I bought at the Mountain Shop a few years ago. I've used it on five walls since then and it looks brand new."

Beware - the stuff can snap on your with little warning! However if you get a nice long hunk, you can trim the end that gets worked the most, and still have enough zed-cord left over to be able to pass knots joining haul lines.

Five walls, eh? Must be "all that work" your 120-lb 9% fat skinny-ass body can generate. Now if you were a Real Man* your Spectra zed-cord would never last that many walls.

*As in, "rather more lard-assly" ...

El Bucanero

climber

May 18, 2013 - 02:29am PT

Just an idea for a slick set-up:

A Rock Exotica Omni-Block 1.5" Double
[url=" http://www.rockexotica.com/products/pulleys/images/P51D2_med.jpg"] http://www.rockexotica.com/products/pulleys/images/P51D2_med.jpg[/url]

<img src="http://www.rockexotica.com/products/pulleys/images/P51D2_med.jpg">

with an inverted petzl basic bolted to the lower attachment point. One sheave and the basic act as the holding ratchet.

A bolt will keep it lined up nicely and closer to the pulley. (obviously a nice 8.8 bolt and washers). The omni has a built in swivel which means no cord link. And the side plates can be opened without taking it off the biner!

m_jones

Trad climber

Carson City, NV

May 24, 2013 - 10:44am PT

Regarding Marks setup of the Chongo hauling system: (which is awesome!)

Why 9/16" flat instead of cord to attach the top pulley?
Is either stronger as if that link fails, the haul bags fall. (best to make sure it is not hanging on by a thread after your 20th wall!!). A carabiner at that spot does not allign well. A swivel hangs everything a bit low. A draw as a back up works pretty good but adds to the stuff in the way.

Marks (chongo) system pre set up in a bag is so fast to implement. On both South Seas and Lost in America I would time his set up time after his leads. From when he yelled "off belay/you can jumar" it was about a minute (yes one minute) and the haul line came tight and he started hauling so I could clear the belay and get cleaning. After only a few leads I was able to get hauling just about as fast. Easy on the brain too as it is already set up.

matty

Trad climber

under the sea

Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2013 - 11:01am PT

Thanks for the input all.

I got a chance to try the ratchet on the prow last week. We fixed the first 3 pitches and then did a long haul. The 2:1 was nice for those slabby first few pitches even though I could haul 1:1, the 2:1 was much less of an effort and left me with more energy for the next pitch. I hauled one more pitch 2:1 just for practice then went 1:1 the rest of the way.

I used a large wired nut in place of the green sling here:

Now I can see how having lengths totally dialed and minimizing the amount of stretchy stuff in the system can really increase efficiency. If I was going to be hauling an entire pitch 2:1 I would use a setup like Marks with the micro trax mounted on a biner through the upper ratchet pulley. It was also nice to know you can always add the ratchet onto a 1:1 that gets too hard. The 2:1 ratchet definitely made passing a knott a breeze!