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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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Dec 30, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
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Ben Franklin said:
"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."
I guess folks are putting in some overtime.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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Ed,
I wasn't demeaning these practical applied science efforts at all. But applied science rests on the foundation of pure science.
(1) Take for example the Wright Brothers. When does the "science" of the Wright Brothers become the "applied science"? when the aeroplane makes it 100 yds, 100 miles? when it was first used to practical benefit?
(2) What of scientific discoveries? What of scientific achievements that don't entail much of any "scientific method" in their fruition? Are they not a part of science? In short, are they not science?
.....
HFCS, you have a peculiarly practical bent to your scientific aesthetic...
I would take that as a compliment. :)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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Werner may have missed a decimal point.
I need to check the figures.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
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Ed, finally read that long post (it's halftime). I read it out loud to my wife, Elizabeth. My wife loves your brain (but my body).
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
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conference call!!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
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HFCS has some valid points. The Nobel prizes are somewhat abitrarily awarded, and focus very much on experimental science - scientists who create hypotheses, and then experiments to validate them. The latter sometimes tend toward actual inventions, but not always, although the prize in medicine and physiology seems to, to a greater extent. Also, certainly in the early part of the 20th century, there wasn't quite as defined a line between "science", "engineering" and "inventing", and there was an awful lot of room for all.
Still, over time the prizes tend to be awarded with reasonable justice, especially in the hard peer-reviewed sciences.
It's interesting that many of the leading mathematicians of the last century weren't from the western nations, although much of the physics was in turn based on that mathematics, and the difference between mathematics and physics isn't always clear.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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I may be the only one to watch the full one hour lecture that HFCS posted (and I will re-post again). Normally I won't waste a full hour of my day watching a video, but I clicked on it and am now about half way through it.
I truly encourage both those of religion and those without, to watch it. The lecturer addresses these issues very directly, and his point is pretty obvious if you want to get down to the nitty gritty:
Science and Religion cannot co-exist in any truthful way. I know that I try to appease Go-B, because I can tell that he is a good guy, but he is wrong and I know it. When I look at something such as evolution, a biological theory, and compare it to paleontology, a geological area of study, they fit together perfectly.
Not only did Darwin say that life evolves, but the entire fossil record of the Planet Earth agrees with it. It is a plain and simple fact, and nobody has ever found a nail in an Ordovician rock. Not only that, but nobody has ever found a land plant fossil in an Ordovician rock.
People, science has had the Universe strapped to a lie detector for a couple of hundred years now, and these things are not just a few scientists here and there. These ideas survive inquiry from many thousands of very curious people who devote their entire lives in the search for truth. This search requires you to cast away any prejudice, and the most ruthless (while still valid) form of scrutiny is the Scientific Method.
If you want to put science under questioning and scrutiny, by all means do. It is designed that way. Just realize that the obverse works just as well.
Prove that God exists. Have at it.
Here is the most excellent lecture. It distills this whole argument into a very simple matter. Science and religion cannot coexist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekc2Nn03IVM
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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BASE, of course they can co-exist. They are based on two totally different premises.
One, fact based.
The other, based on belief.
Why does belief not measure up as another valid reality? Just because it can't currently be empirically proven for most of us? Doesn't mean it lacks worth.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
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Great essay Ed.
Don't worry about Werner's pronouncement. WB believes in time lines from Hindu mythology.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
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If we're so dumb how come we're all rich?
Chris, you must be speaking metaphorically
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
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Yeah, for the uneducated who can't discern between the two.
An educated enlightened populace could have a dialogue without killing each other over it. We're not there yet. To say the least.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
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Extraordinary claims (religion) require extraordinary proofs.
Incantations to raise the dead and praying to imaginary friends require more than just belief to be plausible.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 30, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
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Well you know Jim, ignorance is bliss.
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go-B
climber
Hebrews 1:3
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Dec 30, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
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Science and religion cannot coexist:
God is the Creator, the scientific genius!
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 30, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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Well you know Jim, ignorance is bliss.
and it's folly to be wise
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 30, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
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We need to clarify that religion, by definition, doesn't belong in this conversation if we are to have a positive one. This is much bigger than conventional religion.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 30, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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Why does belief not measure up as another valid reality?
Because we can't afford to spend time arming ourselves against the evils of Mordor when we have REAL issues like global warming, depletion of natural resources, terrorists who believe Uhmerikuh is inherently evil and should be destroyed.
Just because it can't currently be empirically proven for most of us?
Yep, someday they will empirically prove resurrection happens, virgin birth is biologically possible, and people can actually walk on water.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 30, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
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Leastly, your twisted mind is so clouded that you can't advance your higher thought processes to handle broad based concepts without overloading.
Wondering about a higher plane does not mean we abandon life's daily concerns. Sheesh!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 30, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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Mimi,
There is a very good reason that science cannot truthfully coexist with religion. Religion is founded entirely on faith. Faith is belief without evidence. If all knowledge of the natural Universe must be inferior to the laws of faith, then we are going nowhere.
If we are going to be that inclusive in our discussion, we can include any belief without evidence. Have at it.
I know that this sounds pretty strict, but it is the inevitable outcome of any serious thought on the matter.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
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God has to be based on evidence not faith .......
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