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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 13, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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I'm no Donald Trump fan, but it seems that his sons, Eric and Donald Jr., were taught to hunt by their maternal grandfather in the Czech Republic.
Recently TMZ did a piece on their recent African hunt saying that they posed for gruesome photos with mutilated corpses of big game, questioned it's legality, and called them "pitiful bloodthirsty morons".
There was no byline.
In fact the hunt was both legal and sanctioned by game wardens. In fact the population of elephants was burgeoning and needed thinning. In the article by Frank Miniter in the June 2012 National Rifleman Donald Jr was quoted, "After we killed the elephant, Africans came from every direction with buckets and knives. The entire elephant was cut up in hours and hauled off in every direction."
He also said,"Without hunting local populations would decimate these wildlife for food, but because they don't want to lose the hunting dollars, they view the wildlife as a resource that they can benefit from. Hunting is literally saving these wildlife populations."
(pg 36)
There was also a photo of them with a nice cape buffalo that looked delicious.
A friend of mine who worked conservation in Africa for years said that the best meat he ever ate was the hump of a problem rhino they had to put down (and like myself he has had the filet mignon at The Bull & Bear at the Waldorf, so that had to be good.)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 13, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
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The locals can't hunt the animals for themselves, if the justification is thinning the herd/needing meat? They provide the guides, infrastructure and perhaps weapons, after all.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 13, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
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Anders, this way they get money AND meat.
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Scotty E
climber
AB- land of canuck rednecks
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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It's not too often I feel compelled to join the sh!t-slinging fray... but wow, Ron, you must be about as clueless as they come. Mostly because you appear to believe the crap you spew, which if I can get past my initial reaction, makes me feel kinda sorry for you.
I actually conduct wolf research, and while I could itemize a long list of falsehoods Ron willfully perpetuates about subspecies (100% not true- same goes for Silver's BS hybrid "theory") and the need for predator population management (look up "carrying capactiy"), that would just lead to more back and forth ideological rhetoric.
So instead I'll out you as a liar by simply challenging you to produce even 1 photo of a mounted wolf that even remotely approaches those pathetic photoshopped images, of which you claimed to have stuffed equal size wolves. This would require something that provides scale, unlike your "coastal form greys, weigh in at around 190 plus" (coast wolves are actually smaller than other populations. 190 lb wild wolves don't exist, period). While a nose to tail measurement of 6 ft is not uncommon, the caricatures in rwedgee's post would be far beyond that (not to mention that the 1st and 3rd photo are curiously the same image with a different background...).
Riley, I have to admire your perseverance but do question what you hope to accomplish arguing with these folks, heads gleefully rammed into the sand. I agree unconditionally with everything you say, but suspect your energy could be used in more productive ways. Hopefully there's some who see the value in your words. The book you speak of changed the trajectory of my life, and should be mandatory reading for all high school students.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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I don't understand why anyone would kill something that they don't intend to eat, and that is not an immediate threat to hearth and home.
Especially if it is wearing a bright orange collar and you shoot it from a great distance with the most modern killing technology.
What is the point?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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The point?
Why, to display your "trophy".
How cool is that!
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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So Scotty, let me see if I've got this right, you are claiming the guys in the photos are dwarfs ??
You do research in Canada or US ? How has the progression of the US reintroduction gone from your point of view ? What is the sentiment of wolves, hunting wolves, and wolves vs. hunters as far as them competing for deer, elk, etc. ? Does Canada have the same pro and against wold hunting ? Do they monitor the #'s, issue tags, etc. ?? I've never heard thestory in Canada so I'm interested. Thanks
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
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I am about tired of wolf threads.
But I do need to repost this post of mine, from one of the many previous (fuking) wolf threads.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1917890&tn=60
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
Pre-wolf introduction: I did have a U of Idaho wildlife biology Grad student assure me that there were still wolves living in the huge Selway Bitteroot Wilderness.
Wolf introduction was being pushed by U.S. Fish & Wildlife and the biology Grad-student told me that their only acceptable documentation of Idaho wolves would be a dead Idaho wolf.
Bear in mind that a lot of folks at U.S. Fish & Wildlife made their careers and career money on wolf introduction into the Northern Rockies.
**I think a lot of us in the Northern Rockies resent the wolves because the government rammed them down our throats.
How ungrateful of us, little people!**
Here is some more documentation that the wolves introduced were not what once roamed the Rockies.
This article from a pro-wolf site seems fairly informative on size and origin of our current introduced wolves in the Northern Rockies:
http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/?p=12297
OR: ‘Canadian’ wolves – How big and bad are they?
Posted on June 21, 2012 by TWIN Observer
By Pat Valkenburg
To many people in rural areas of the West, bringing wolves back was a bad idea. To perhaps have brought back a possibly larger subspecies that was never here to begin with (the “Canadian” wolf) has added fuel to the controversy.
Pictures of very large wolves taken during the Idaho hunting season have appeared on the Internet, but some people suspect the photos have been digitally enhanced to make the wolves appear larger than they actually are.
So, what is the truth about these “Canadian” wolves? Are they really larger than the original wolf that used to roam the western states, and if so, how much larger are they?
Perhaps more importantly, if the introduced wolf is a larger subspecies, are they more likely to kill livestock and working dogs or to kill more deer and elk than the original subspecies?
Within the last several months, using newly available genetic information in addition to existing morphometric data, research biologists (Steven M. Chambers, Steven R. Fain, Bud Fazio, and Michael Amaral) with the US Fish and Wildlife Service completed an extensive review of wolves in North America – the third comprehensive review since 1944.
These researchers support the view that only three subspecies of wolves should be recognized in western North America and that a single subspecies (Canis lupus nubilus) inhabited all of the western states north of Arizona and New Mexico, and southern Alberta, southern British Columbia and Southeast Alaska.
The original common name for this relatively small wolf was “plains” wolf because it was first encountered by Europeans on the Great Plains. Although it was completely eliminated from the western United States by the late 1920s (except for a handful in the Cascades until the early 1940s), it continued to exist in healthy numbers in southwestern Canada and southeastern Alaska.
A considerably larger northwestern wolf (Canis lupus occidentalis) occupied northern Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon, and the rest of Alaska. This wolf has always been common and its distribution has never been appreciably affected by human activity. The northwestern wolf evolved in northeast Asia and Beringia during the Wisconsin Glaciation, while smaller subspecies of wolves developed south of the ice sheets.
The third subspecies of wolf in western North America, the Mexican wolf (Canis lupus baileyi), is the only subspecies that was ever truly endangered, having died out in the wild in Sonora in the 1970s. It is currently being reintroduced from captive animals into northern Arizona and New Mexico.
Unfortunately, biologists did not have good information on wolf genetics during the early 1990s when the decision was made to reintroduce wolves to Wyoming and Idaho from Alberta and British Columbia.
The concern at the time was that wolves for reintroduction should come from relatively abundant populations that had experience at hunting elk and bison, the two major prey species in Yellowstone National Park that were considered overly abundant.
Although there is a zone in southcentral British Columbia and southern Alberta where the two subspecies mix, the capture sites (Hinton, AB and Fort Saint John, BC) of the wolves transplanted to Wyoming and Idaho were well within the range of the larger, northern subspecies.
The Alaska Department of Fish and Game sent two pilots and two biologists to help with wolf capture and they were impressed by the large size of the wolves and their similarity to Alaskan wolves. The largest males weighed around 140 pounds.
The original wolf of the western states was 20-25% smaller, with large males seldom exceeding 110 pounds and the largest recorded being 125 pounds. The skull size of the northwestern wolf is also about 4-6% larger than that of the plains wolf. The evidence is pretty clear that the subspecies of wolf brought to the western states for reintroduction is not the same wolf that historically lived here.
Will this larger subspecies make a difference? Although it is generally true that larger predators tend to select larger species of prey, there is plenty of evidence that the original wolves made a good living hunting bison and elk and were often a serious problem for livestock as well, including the horses raised by Native Americans (for many examples see “The Wolves of North America” by Stanley P. Young and Edward A. Goldman, published in 1944).
No matter which subspecies of wolf had been reintroduced, managing livestock depredation problems would have required considerable money and effort, just as it did with the smaller plains wolf.
Fortunately for cattle ranchers, wolves seem to prefer elk more than domestic animals. The natural tendency for most wolves to hunt elk, and use of nonlethal conditioning methods combined with lethal removal of wolves that develop a pattern of killing livestock, should keep livestock depredation to a low and economically tolerable level.
However, it will be important for wolf advocates to be willing to compromise with ranchers on the issue of lethal wolf control because the interests of ranchers are critical, not only to successful wolf reintroduction, but to the conservation of habitat for many other species of wildlife as well.
The effects of the new, larger subspecies of wolf (or any subspecies for that matter) on populations of elk, deer, and other wildlife are more of an unknown and will likely be quite variable. All of the original ecosystems of the western states have been greatly modified by fencing, grazing, introduction of new species of plants, and by agriculture. In other words, it’s a whole new ballgame now, not just because of the larger wolf.
The amount of wolf predation on elk and other game species that people are willing to tolerate will be ultimately up to state legislators, governors, game commissioners, and voters. It is likely that wolf control programs, such as those conducted in Alaska, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming, will be eventually implemented in other states as the range of the wolf continues to expand.
Pat Valkenburg is a certified wildlife biologist who worked for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game for 28 years on caribou, wolves, bears, and other wildlife. Since first retiring from ADF&G in 2003, he has continued to work on wildlife research projects in Alaska, Ontario, Manitoba, Labrador, and Oregon. He has spent the last two winters in the Enterprise area working with his wife Audrey Magoun, documenting the presence of wolverines in the Wallowa Mountains.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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Good post, Fritz.
I'm tired of wolf threads too...but, oh, that folklore of the mythic interchangeable Gray Wolf.
Despite the fact that there always has been, genetic interchange between different populations, there are substantial differences between divergent populations of Gray Wolves in North America, brought about by local adaption to regional conditions, and disconnection during the Ice Ages.
Ergo recent studies, North American wolves can be partitioned into four (or perhaps five) subspecies that differ in size, structure and and to a lesser degree, color
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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Riley Wyna -- "i am retiring from ST political discussions ..."
Why retire?
Keep on ranting dude, it's good for you.
Even if you only have the four walls as your audience.
Nothing worst then keeping it inside, especially for a fiery guy like you :-)
Scream if ya hafta also.
Love ya ......
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Feb 19, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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That's so sad, Ron. Three dogs let loose to tree a mountain lion for hunters to catch up and get the easy kill shot get killed by wolves.
What goes around, comes around.
Oh, Phil, you are quite the brave sportsman on your snowmobile. Please tell us more about your heroics and tragic loss.
http://biggamehoundsmen.com/forum/stinkin-wolves-t34145-15.html
Stinkin wolves. We used to say stinkin indians, some still do.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Feb 19, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
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Hunt hunters.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
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That's where all the real men went, hunting with their doggies what a joke.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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Ever try to hunt lion WITHOUT dogs? Thats called impossible.
No, I'd call that sportsmanlike. You've already got the gun.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
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I've just never had any interest in sneaking up on something and killing it. What's wrong with me?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Feb 19, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
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I've stalked for hunders of feet on my belly - run for mile bent down with my face inches from the ground & snap pictures that I've had the rest of my life, & the animal keep it's life. Hunting for fun is murder & nothing less.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
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Yeah yeah yeah, I'm not trying to put down hunting but this guy put his dogs in this position where the hunters became the hunted and it backfired.wah wah.It's your right to put on yer scent blocker camo,sit up in a tree and pick off little animals. btw do they eat the mountain lions or are they just performing a public service? I feel bad for the dogs.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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Feb 19, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
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True words Frumy. I get far more joy from tracking, stalking, and photographing wildlife than I ever did from shooting an animal.
I think using dogs to hunt bears and lions is comparable to a climber chopping holds, very lame. Don't get me wrong, I hate hearing about these dogs getting killed, but as we all know, risk is inherent in the mountains.
As to 832 and the Lamar pack. Sounds like the Lamars will likely disintegrate. Since they had prime range another pack will replace them soon. I'd like to see the Mollies take over the valley but they have been hanging out in Pelican Valley for most of this winter.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Pollock Pines, California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
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im naming my next child
832F in honor of the fallen canine.
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