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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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A bit of education on the parable of "Caesar's penny"...
Luke 20:24-26 KJV
"Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Cæsar's. And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which be Cæsar's, and unto God the things which be God's. And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace."
Render:
- Original: α ̓ πο δ ι ́ δ ωμ ι - Transliteration: Apodidomi - Phonetic: ap-od-eed'-o-mee - Definition: 1. to deliver, to give away for one's own profit what is one's own, to sell.
You see, Caesar would sell what he THINKS is rightfully his, for his own profit. God left his perfect, righteous world to come down to this sinful unrighteous place, in the form of stinking flesh, to be sold out for thirty pieces of silver, suffered, was ridiculed, spat on, punched, whipped, lashed with cat and nine tails until he was unrecognizable, and nailed to a cross as an innocent man, where He eventually died from His own injuries, not for His own profit but YOUR PROFIT, a gift, a free gift of eternal life back with Him for eternity. But there is one small requirement that most, just as they did back then, will reject, and that is to accept that gift. This is the saddest part of His love story to mankind.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Would you please give the incessant proseltyzing a break? All you do is spew your damn jewish zombie fairy tale bullsh#t, over and over and over again.
We get it, you can't think for yourself. You are beholden to some incoherent, internally contradictory set of fables to soothe your existential angst. Whatever turns your crank, but frankly I'm beyond tired of your continual, tiresome god bothering freak show. STFU or beat it.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Thank you Elcap... Glory to God, God is good!
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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for those that knock peoples faith in God...have you ever read or studied the subject that you all are authorities on. I don't mean sunday school lessons, what priests tell ya, or the door knockers..Don't make ill informed statements if you have no background to back it up. It is poor form. Therefore those should not knock a subject they have now real knowledge about IMO. Don't read excerpts from others on the Internet...just force yourself ...research...get the beta before you slam/judge read the Book like you would study a route that you were going to do this weekend.. Just give it a try...pick it up with either a closed or open mind and try it. Then if you want to have a debate on the subject matter we wil be on equal footing.
On another subject that has been bantered about, I understand that religion to mean obedience to the word of God...not some mystical man made cathedral in some dingy part of town with a whiskey breathing preacher asking for cash for your salvation.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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I admire both for their climbing prowess and abilities to push the envelope to levels I will never attain, but I'm certainly inspired by both of them . . .
Wishing happiness and long life to Alex.
I liked Mike Reardon but lampooned him a little during his short years of public ascendancy. I felt pretty wretched about it after his death. Live and learn...value and take pleasure in individual's strength and spirit, be patient with frailties.
...makes living with others smoother...(and living with yourself less burdensome)
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YoungGun
climber
North
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for those that knock peoples faith in God...have you ever read or studied the subject that you all are authorities on. I don't mean sunday school lessons, what priests tell ya, or the door knockers..Don't make ill informed statements if you have no background to back it up. It is poor form. Therefore those should not knock a subject they have now real knowledge about IMO. Don't read excerpts from others on the Internet...just force yourself ...research...get the beta before you slam/judge read the Book like you would study a route that you were going to do this weekend.. Just give it a try...pick it up with either a closed or open mind and try it. Then if you want to have a debate on the subject matter we wil be on equal footing.
Nice try, but I've read the Bible in its entirety multiple times. I've read John Calvin, Alvin Plantinga, Darrell Bock, Ravi Zacharias, Soren Kierkegaard, Cornelius Van Til, Simon Conway Morris, G. K. Chesterton, and virtually everything written by C.S. Lewis. That pretty much covers the best literature you can find on Christian philosophy, history, theology, and apologetics. Have YOU?
I've also read extensively on scientific methods, evolution, physics, economics, mathematics, biology, and come to the conclusion that they offer a coherent and TESTABLE perspective on the universe and our place in it. Religion, in contrast, offers an incoherent and antiquated theory on life which is not testable.
I may be an atheist but I know more about Christianity than most Christians. If more Christians started looking into simple things like: how the Bible was constructed, why certain manuscripts are included and others are not, why certain versions are chosen over others, and so on, they might be pretty disturbed. But it never was about an intelligent or educated take on the world, it's always been about giving up all of that for an incoherent and implausible fable. So it's pretty rich of you to come out and act like the atheists on the forum are the ones making decisions without educated consideration of both sides.
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jstan
climber
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So it's pretty rich of you to come out and act like the atheists on the forum are the ones making decisions without educated consideration of both sides.
Young Gun was being very gentle when the word "rich" was chosen. "Self-righteous" could as easily have been used in its place.
When I was eight or nine all on my own I started reading the bible. Just to be a little more educated. I got as far as all of the begetting and stopped there. I figured people who were so vitally concerned with bloodlines and status probably would not have information I would find useful. Many decades later all of the arguments we have over who is a "real christian" and who isn't persuade me my decision at an early age was most likely correct.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nicely said jstan and impressive reading YounGun. A survey asking religious questions of different groups found atheists to be the best informed.
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Beautiful_Corn
Big Wall climber
Brooklyn Park, MD
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My grandfather became a Baptist minister during his retirement and devoted himself to serving as a chaplain in a hospital offering comfort to the sick and dying. He spent his free time learning Greek and studying pre- King James translation Bible scriptures. I was watching PBS with him once when I was maybe five years old and there was some program that showed a large group of Muslims (I think they were women?) kneeling on prayer mats in an outdoor setting and praying in unison. My grandfather said something like "That's incredible... it's a shame they are praying to the wrong god." I didn't realize it at the time but that comment was what started me on the path to non-belief.
When I was a little older I read "The Picture Bible" probably one hundred times. I found it fascinating and it probably did a lot to shape me. I also read the King James translation and the NIV version quite a bit, though not nearly as much.
I appreciated (and still do) the messages of honesty, fairness, the "golden rule", and other humanist types of morality taught by Jesus and others. I still couldn't stomach the idea of a god in the sky, even as a child. Today I consider myself an atheist (still trying to get my head around the igtheist thing).
According to this guy, my parents have doomed me to hell because they bought me The Picture Bible. Whatever...
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/the_picture_bible.htm
Oh wait, I'm going to hell anyway because my parents raised me United Methodist. Here's an excerpt from that website:
"Honestly, The Picture Bible is extremely ecumenical (i.e., acceptable by many different religions). The Picture Bible wouldn't be offensive to many false religions today; including: Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists, Catholics, Lutherans, Church of Christ, Unitarian Universalist, United Methodist Churches of Christ, and many more. In sharp contrast, the Word of God offends all these groups, which is why they follow their own teachings instead of God's Word."
Here's what I often think to myself:
What do we call the religion of the ancient Greeks? The Romans? The Aztecs? The Mayans? Native Americans? Aboriginal Australians? Africans? Etc., etc. ad infinitum... MYTHOLOGY. In thousands of years Christianity, Islam, and Judaism will be thought of in the same way. Just more myths from long dead civilizations.
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WBraun
climber
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The minute one uses sectarian religion as an argument you're screwed.
It will lead you no where and completely bewilder you and turn you into an atheist.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Young gun.....please, get off the "knowledge" kick...you sound like my son, and everybody else that prefers "riches" over humility. All that Bible knowledge and not once sharing the meaning behind the greatest love story ever told. Then again, this is fitting for someone that doesn't "know" the Word of God, but rather someone that knows alot "about" His Word.
I just had the PRIVELEDGE of literally sitting at the feet of my father in law who was recently diagnosed with a stage 4 glioblastoma brain tumor. He told me of an incredible vision he had while, of all things, sitting at his bedside, urinating in a urinal and dozing off.
My father-in-law is ex Filipino military and Philippine National Police and held himself at a standard of excellence and military bearing. It wasn't appropriate to cry for this was a sign of "weakness." He admitted to "wanting to know everything" he could "everything that interested me." The more knowledge the better. Mr. B holds a masters in business administration and a bachelors in industrial engineering. He retired at the rank of Colonel in the PNP, and played a mean game of tennis at the age of sixty.
"I was traveling at a high rate of speed Gary, as if something was propelling me forward. It was fast, incredibly fast! I've experienced flight on aircraft before and I know what high speed feels like but this was like no other," he shared with me, his voice starting to tremble, and tears starting to well up in his eyes. He stared straight ahead at the wall behind me.
"When I stopped there were two figures in white standing in front of me. One was a male, and the other was a female, about the size of my daughter. They were talking to each other but I couldn't hear them or understand what they were saying. It felt as if they were discussing what to do with me but I can't really say," he described while tears ran off both our faces, snot hanging to the carpet below me. "All of the sudden I was moving very quickly again, so fast, back to where I came from. When I opened my eyes, there I was, still sitting at the bedside with the urinal in my hand."
"I realize now that I am nothing, for all I've been doing is inhibiting His Knowledge from working through me like a clean vessel. I realize now how limited I am, and how limitless God is!"
Edit: Mr. "B" accepted Jesus Christ as his savior back in 1993 at a international police training seminar in Ft. Lee Virginia and has wishes of going back home to the Philippines to preach God's Word. He is currently in rehab after brain surgery. Please pray for him.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Young gun.....please, get off the "knowledge" kick... If you're reading the thread, you will see I am responding to someone who argued that atheists were making ill informed decisions. My reply was to dispel this notion. See, there's continuity and dialog -- not everyone is just showing up to SPAM a zillion Bible verses and then disappear and call it a conversation.
Your response is basically the layman's version of the multi-volume work of Alvin Plantinga in Warrant and Proper Function, Warranted Christian Belief, etc. That is, if someone experiences something and forms belief on the basis of that experience, the fact that others don't share that experience does not invalidate it.
The problem is that this justifies belief in all kinds of things, not just religious experiences. If you go into the woods alone and see a unicorn, when you come out of the woods and tell me about it there's no real way I can disprove or invalidate your experience other than just saying "you're crazy" which amounts to an accusation of irrationality.
The crux of the Plantinga argument revolves around the likelihood that the human brain is functioning properly in an appropriate environment. So the question is: if we have evolved on the basis of random genetic mutation and natural selection, how likely is it we have also evolved to think rationally?
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Hey Lolli...have I studied...somewhat...am I an expert? by no means. I have studied the time that is being discussed in the old Testament which gave me an much better understanding of the life that was occurring during those times. I have studied apologetics and other forms of religion. For example...Spiritualism, Scientology, Free Masonry, The Way International, The Baha'i Faith, Unitairan-Universalist Association, Unification Church (moonies), Christian Science, New Age Movement, Jehovah's witness, and LDS and some on the Qur'an.
I am and was like most here..just found something that made sense to me and the more I looked the more informed I was. What is difficult is being able to remove all the stigmas that man has attached to the original documents. For example...IMO the evidence provided in the Bible provides the most accurate historical depiction of what transpired during those times then any other source. Even today, if anyone looks, all documents of history are written generations latter, some much, much later. If you throw in the writings of lets say the historian Josephus, you now have an independent non biblical person supporting the original documentation. Where else in history does man have that kind of evidence that something occurred and documented first hand per say.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Your knowledge is vanity (nothing).
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
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Oh no Honnold is not needed nor is he the inspiration for this discussion. This program is regularly scheduled!
Hahahaaaaaaaaaa!!
DMT hit the nail squarely on it's head, once again!
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Gene
climber
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Oh no Honnold is not needed nor is he the inspiration for this discussion. This program is regularly scheduled!
See the second post in this thread and have a seat on the couch.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Truthdweller: Your knowledge is vanity (nothing). I spent years of free time reading about your religion because I desperately wanted to know the truth and to understand the world around me. It's pretty insulting for you to write what I have learned off as nothingness obtained in the pursuit of my own vanity. Disappointing that you are not able to do better than this kind of ad hominem attack response.
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jstan
climber
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Young gun.....please, get off the "knowledge" kick...
TD:
You are criticizing someone for the way they think and reason. This smacks of a very deep intolerance. Sunni and the Shia seem to have such a deep intolerance. I trust this characteristic does not also reside among christians.
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