Discussion Topic |
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:50am PT
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http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=101352
Post-construction fires in WTC buildings 1,2,& 7 prior to 9/11/2001
47 significant fires occurred- activating, or being capable of activating 1-3 sprinkler heads, not including the 1975 WTC1 fire, or the 1993 bombing.
The 1975 fire burned 9,000SF on floor 11, with damage to floors 10-19. There were no sprinklers.
The fire was put out by firefighters.
http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=861610
Final Report on the collapse of WTC7
"Other than initiating the fires in WTC 7, the damage from the debris from WTC1 had little effect on initiating the collapse of WTC 7. The building withstood debris impact damage that resulted in 7 exterior columns being severed and subsequently withstood fires involving typical office combustibles on several floors for almost 7 hours. ....Even without the structural damage, WTC 7 would have collapsed from fires having the same characteristics as those experienced on Sept. 11, 2001. "
"Since WTC 7 was not doused with thousands of gallons of jet fuel, large areas of any floor were not ignited simultaneously. Instead, the fires in WTC 7 were similar to those that have occurred in several tall buildings where automatic sprinklers did not function or were not present. These other buildings did not collapse, while WTC 7 succumbed to its fires."
"This was the first known instance of the total collapse of a tall building primarily due to its fires."
"The transfer elements such as trusses, girders, and cantilever overhangs that were used to support the office building over the Con Edison substation did not play a role in the collapse of WTC 7."
"The installed thickness of the thermal insulation was consistent with the fire ratings required by NYCBC."
"Within the building were emergency electrical power generators, whose fuel supply tanks lay in and under the building. However, fuel oil fires did not play a role in the collapse of WTC 7."
To summarize this information from the official investigation:
 A fire burned 9,000 Square feet of WTC #1 with no sprinklers.
The debris damage to WTC 7 was not a factor in it's collapse. No huge gash in the south face was noted.
The fires in WTC 7 were typical of those that have happened in other non-sprinkled buildings, which did not collapse. In fact, no other tall building has completely collapsed from fire.
The convoluted lower structure of WTC 7 was not a factor in it's collapse.
The fireproofing was to code, and what was displaced in the structurally damaged area was not a factor.
The fuel and fuel tanks were not a factor in the collapse of WTC 7.
The fires started at the debris damage in the Southwest corner, only fires on floors 7-9, and 11-13 continued burning, and the 'probable collapse sequence' was thought to start in the 'Northeast region' almost 7 hours later.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:20am PT
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Hundreds of eye and ear witnesses, many who are exceptionally credible, say there were many explosions separate from the planes.
DrF, considering your utter disdain and distrust of the Republicans I am hard pressed to understand your blind and blanket acceptance of their flawed explanation. The shear number of blatant misrepresentations, impossible physics and conflicting facts would seem to be enough for you to doubt the legitimacy of this the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the world.
Why is it important for you to accept without question this Republican fairly tale?
It simply did not happen the way they want and need you to "Believe" it did.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:08am PT
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OK, down to the core NIST (final report on bldg 7) explanation for WTC 7 collapse:
"The initiating local failure that began the probable WTC 7 collapse sequence was the buckling of Column 79 (sic). This buckling arose from a process that occurred at temperatures at or below approximately 750˚F."
There you have it. It all came down from plain old office fires heating some steel beams not much hotter than you'd cook a pizza.
The idea is that the steel floor beams expanded- even though they're attached to 5 1/2" concrete slabs- and pushed a girder off its seats- even though there are floor beams and concrete on the other side of the girder- and then that poor column 79 didn't have enough support, and buckled, and suddenly the 80+/- other columns that support the floors- about the size of a football field, gave way and collapsed in 7 seconds.
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Quasimodo
Trad climber
CA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 08:56am PT
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After reading all the posts I realize not one person on this thread got a clue about the structural design of WTC 7. As a real structural engineer who actually designs large multi-story buildings one can just look at the structural system and understand why it collapsed. Good design of mid and high rise structures starts will a regular system. Unfortunately, architects like dramatic very tall lower floors with much less offensive columns. I have regular arguments with architects about good design practices. Architects like to push us structural engineers to design thinner, lighter, less conjested and highly irregular buildings. My job is to design a building that is focused on public safety not to massage the architects large ego.
Structural engineers in high seismic zones like in California understand that a good system does not have vertical irregularities. Typically, most structural engineers will make the architect happy by compromising the structural system to actually make money and get work. Being a Prima Dona about a consistent structural system will only lead to designing dog houses. The building code allows the engineer to design a high rise building with vertical irregularities. Codes allow the designer to exercise his/her own good judgement. Good judgement is very subjective. In regions of low seismic risk vertical irregularities are more the norm than the exception because the risks are lower. We never considered terrorism as a design consideration before 911. Now the Fed requires all Federal buildings to consider Progressive Collapse.
Look at the NIST study and carefully look at the many transfer beams that create a strange and irrational gravity load path to the foundation. If the WTC 7 design was submitted to OSHPD (hospital jurisdiction in California) today they would tell the owner to find another competent structural engineer. Vertical irregularities with large transfer beams creates a house of cards. If one column below the transfer beam level buckles the entire system becomes unstable. Imagine a marble on the crest of a hill. One slight touch either way sends the marble screaming down the hill. The combination of an intense fire and a crappy structural system caused the collapse. Klimmer and the conspiracy theortist are dead wrong.
The biggest threat to our future is our current instability in the US. I would instead focus on the 15 Trillion in debt with 1.5 Trillion, excluding interest, added each year for the next decade or so. Then add the entitlements of SS, Medicare and public pensions in the next few decades. We could be Greece very soon.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 10:35am PT
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The whole NIST report is worthless.
But since some of you haven't got the slightest clue as to why and you blindly take to it without even researching NIST and the 911 commissions history related to this event makes your analysis useless too except to keep feeding the illusion.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 11:49am PT
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(Oddly enough in the same fasion as the other 2.)
A joke? The collapse of tower 1 and 2 really don't look like the collapse of wtc 7. The towers fel down from the impact floor and down and didn't look at all like control demolitions that I have seen. The collapse of WTC 7 at least look like a control demolition because it seems to fell down from the ground and up.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 20, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Quasimodo-
You design large multi-story buildings, and yet you liken this one to a marble that one touch will send screaming down the hill?
Wow.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
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Betelnut-
Interesting video, and concept.
However, it still boils down to the argument "I can't believe otherwise, so this must be true".
If the guy holding the umbrella at the hearing is 'the umbrella man', he looks a bit young to be concerned with political issues of 1938-9.
He shows up 25 years after the Kennedy assassination and says "I'm the guy, and this is what I was thinking...".
And Errol Morris says it must be true, because it's weird.
I'm underwhelmed by the rigor of this.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Nov 24, 2011 - 10:07am PT
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Now Quasimodo be nice to architects, they butter your bread! The better ones start with the structure in mind and collaborate early with all the engineers. Thanks for the post, but I'd bet there isn't a soul on this thread whose perspective has been changed. Screw it, here's a real change of perspective:
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 11:47am PT
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MH, healyje, Quasi, High Traverse, etc are all mental speculators and guessing fools just like you pertaining to this subject matter.
YOU DON"T FUKING KNOW THE REAL TRUTH ULTIMATELY
Just theories and conclusions based on other peoples theories.
The other side (so called truthers) are doing the same thing.
Even the official reports are theories, speculations, manipulations, tons of omissions, tons of disinformation with no real absolute conclusions.
Only an insane person would accept the nonsense you guys are accepting ......
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
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Thus you are officially insane since you do not have privy to the required people who initiated the 911 events.
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
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it's nice to know i'm not highly educated.
and WB is helping this thread more than ANYONE else.
it doesn't have to be "truthers" VS believe everything the gov't told you about what happen.
There's the folks who state that they clearly don't know and want more questions asked and a real investigation. but it's a pipe dream to believe for a second a real investigation will ever happen.
the only truth about all this that I know is that I don't know and that something stinks. And if you just sit by idly and miss that fact than, well, i'm kinda having a hard time with the "highly educated" classification.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
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I DON'T beleive the "Conspiracy theories" either...
???
everyone believes in a conspiracy - its either 17 Arabs with box-cutters conspiracy, or its US Government insider involvement.
I mean get a grip; NORAD was having practice drills that day (nice coincidence) and didn't notice a hijacked 707 headed its way? get real...
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:30pm PT
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everyone believes in a conspiracy - its either 17 Arabs with box-cutters conspiracy, or its US Government insider involvement.
bingo!
though that's not entirely true. there are some, like myself, that don't buy any of the story at this point. the whole thing stinks and begs for many more questions. and if you quit asking those questions it's hard not to ponder why you question so often the republitards and their approach to this world and this country....
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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If the conspiracy is true... then ... what?
I didn't hear anything on that video talking about motive etc.
If someone blew it up, then it was the 3rd one that day.
Is that new?
Nobody was in it by then.
What's the big deal? (meaning... someone should be talking about WHY)
Anyone?
Why level it? No loss of life in WTC #7 (weren't they all evacuated by then?)
So someone brought down a building. If it was terrorist... then all they got was a building. If it was US Gov.. .then why?????
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