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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 10, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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Sometimes you get a situation where a subgroup of people with their own subculture are at odds with the rest of society.
For example base jumpers think they should have the right to jump of bridges and cliffs in National Parks that is against the rules. The base jumpers are very sincere in their beliefs, but that does not change the fact that they are doing something illegal. When they are caught they are subjected to society's punishments.
Cops are another subgroup of people and have their own subculture, and it appears that they are at odds with the rest of society on at least this issue. They may think that the Fullerton police "did not make any mistakes" according to their perception of what is the proper way for them to behave.
But view the videos of the incident that show the reactions of the other witnesses (a good cross-section of society)-- they are NOT with the police on this.
Cicinelli and Ramos are not going to be judged by a jury of 12 police officers but by a jury of everyday people, mostly people like me and the other non-cops.
Cicinelli and Ramos are presumed innocent until proven guilty and are entitled to a full jury trial. The prosecution will have the obligation to prove, to the jury's satisfaction, that they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Cicinelli and Ramos will have the right to defend and explain themselves.
We should wait for the jury verdict and respect their judgment.
For the sake of their families, I hope that Cicinelli and Ramos have a good defense, because I think the video and its audio speak largely for itself. If I were a member of the jury, and if the evidence were limited to what I saw in the video, the news reports and on the Board I'd vote to put them away for life.
And I'd feel the same way about any other cop who was in their shoes, even "nice" cops or ex-cops that have a nice wife/husband and kids at home, or participate in the cleanup, or donate to the Access Fund, or helped recover lost climbing gear.
I think there are a lot of other people who think the same way.
If you are a cop, please remember:
 you work for us, not the other way around.
your first loyalty should be to the public you have sworn to protect and serve, not to your buddies on the force.
you have to operate according to our laws, not those that you and your bro's make up.
if you can't handle this, you should not be a cop.
I'm not trying to engage in name-calling or posturing here. I'm just being honest. If those cops were convicted and sentenced to the gas chamber (I think they are only facing 15 years to life, but if they were) and if I were called on to pull the lever to release the lethal gas, I'd step up and pull it without hesitation.
Just remember this every time you reach for your gun or baton, and every time you kick or punch or choke or crush anyone.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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May 10, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
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gc,
My current friends on LASD, SFPD, East Bay Parks Police, etc. all think that this was handled properly and that prosecution is unwarranted.
I'll let ME speak for himself, but we've chatted on the phone.
TheTool
LASD 108RS
You are totally in denial. Beating someone to death is handling it properly? The guy weighed 135 sopping wet. How you can defend these murderers is beyond me. If your "friends" think this was properly handled and you buy in to it, well, that is a very scary thing.
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WBraun
climber
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May 10, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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granite-case says; "cops work for us, not the other way around."
Man you are stupid.
Cops work to uphold the law.
If they work for you then anyone can just easily pay them to look the other way ....
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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May 10, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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If they work for you then anyone can just easily pay them to look the other way .... Many have & continue to, Werner. Ever been to New Orleans?
Don't play the naive card.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 10, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
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Werner, if you don't want to be a public servant and be paid with our tax dollars, you can quit whenever you want.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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Evidence exhibits:
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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May 11, 2012 - 01:23am PT
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I am glad people understand that I am trying to explain things from the police perspective. And trust me I know that my opinion is the extreme minority on this site. I have never worked with Ramos or heard of him prior to this incident. I have met the other officer and took bites from his dog when he was a handler, but never worked with him on the streets so I don't know anything about him. I have heard numerous rumors about Thomas's dad and his police career (none of which are any good) but I do t know the truth about his career. All I know for sure was he was not a cop of any significant amount of time. I would never have made the "see these fists comment" but I have and will continue to warn people that if they don't do as they are told they will get hurt. This is a proven tactic that does work, especially with a street wise criminal. Anytime I have a reason to detain a person they are sat on the ground with their feet in front of them and hands are on the lap. It may not be comfortable but it isn't going to cause any damage to them. This position of disadvantage my just buy me the split second to react and make it home to my family. It has been over 60 years since there were less than 100 cops killed in a year in the US and I do everything I can to make sure I am not one of them. If I have someone sitting down I NEVER stand them up to place them into handcuffs. I give up my advantage and give them the opportunity to run or fight. Fighting someone into handcuffs sucks. We are trained to diffuse situations when possible but it is not always possible. We are also trained to arrest people who don't want to go to jail. Sometimes that means we must fight with them. When ever we fight cops and suspects get hurt. Sometimes people die. It is a horrible reality. Like I have said several times ever use of force is ugly and violent. Law enforcement is an ugly and brutal job at times. Other times it can be the most rewarding.
If you have never fought with anyone who has psych issues or who is blown out on drugs you have no idea what they are capable of. In the last 6 months my small department had 3 officers injured with a 120 lbs 16 year old. All of these cops are big boys and in shape. Have also had another officer break his wrist in a fight and yet another dislocate his shoulder.
When it comes to determining if the use of force is reasonable it must be judged by what a reasonable and prudent officer given the same exact set of circumstances would have done.
A cop will never have a jury of his peers. No cop can sit on a criminal jury in CA. As for the "blue wall" or "the code of silence" I will tell you tha it is BS in most departments. My career and the means of supporting my family is not worth risking because some a-hole wants to do something stupid. My job is to enforce the law and sometimes that means arresting cops or reporting violations of policy to my supervisor.
Again I understand my opinion is not the popular one here. And if I remember correctly I stated this opinion before fatty did. In my book he was a cop and worked for one of the busiest and best departments in the US.
Eric
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2012 - 03:00am PT
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I have heard numerous rumors about Thomas's dad and his police career (none of which are any good) but I do t know the truth about his career. All I know for sure was he was not a cop of any significant amount of time.
I guess it shouldn't surprise me that OC cops are belittling both the quality or quantity of the victim's dad, Ron Thomas, and that you are now repeating that here.
But I think it is repulsive and does not further my opinion of cop subculture. But I think it really matters to a lot of cops. You're "one of them" or you're not. If you're "one of them" or the family of "one of them" you get special consideration.
So I think that when they slander Kelly Thomas' Dads career, it's just a backhanded way of further excusing the assault against Kelley.
After all, if they had to think of Kelly Thomas as being family of "one of them"... well, that would be different!
Why should it really matter whether Ron Thomas was a cop for a short time or a long time? Ron Thomas has been very vocal in speaking about his son to the public and the media and you don't see him talking about himself but only about his son and what happened to him. He speaks as the farther of a dead son.
I don't know anything about his career and I don't care. The Fullerton Police Department was trying to bury this whole incident and they almost succeeded. Ron Thomas almost singlehandedly got the District Attorney's Office to take the case seriously and start a real investigation. He has MY respect.
Anytime I have a reason to detain a person they are sat on the ground with their feet in front of them and hands are on the lap. It may not be comfortable but it isn't going to cause any damage to them.
This is a "stress position." You seem to realize it is uncomfortable for just about everyone, but are oblivious to the fact that it is and almost impossible for some people to hold this position for more than a few seconds, especially those with bad backs. Lots of homeless people are not in good health, and if you spend your nights sleeping in trash cans (like Thomas Kelly says he did in the video) you can expect it to take a toll on your back.
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/05/08/graphic-surveillance-video-of-kelly-thomas-beating-shown-in-court/
“Put your hands on your (expletive) knees…put your feet out in front of you,” Ramos could be seen telling Thomas in the video.
“Well, which one is it, dude?” Thomas said.
“Both,” Ramos responded.
“I can’t do both,” Thomas retorted.
“Well, you’re gonna have to learn real quick,” Ramos told him.
According to audio captured on an officer’s tape recorder, the situation escalated quickly after that.
Look at 6:30 onwards. It looks like he really is trying to comply but having trouble.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Not all former cops are in agreement with ME Climb and Fatty:
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/05/08/graphic-surveillance-video-of-kelly-thomas-beating-shown-in-court/
KCAL9 News spoke with Steve Meister, a criminal defense attorney and former L.A. County prosecutor, and Timothy Williams Jr, a police procedures expert and former LAPD detective, about the video and how it will impact the case.
“Look how many officers it took for him to stay still – five,” Meister remarked while watching the video. “An unmedicated schizo who was obviously capable to fight 5 officers who are trained to take down… That presents a danger.”
“In my opinion, all of this was excessive force,” Williams said. “I’ve been in altercations and I know it doesn’t take all that to control someone who was unarmed.”
http://www.ocweekly.com/2011-11-24/news/fullerton-police-department-ron-kelly-thomas/3/
David Bailey, part-owner of Matador Cantina (site of the former Rockin' Taco) and a former Los Angeles police officer, says he has met with the Fullerton PD to talk about officer behavior in the area. "It's like, 'Whoa, whoa, whoa. You don't need to treat everybody like that all the time,'" Bailey says. He attributes the department's problems to a lack of leadership and addressing allegations. "The officers felt it was okay, in the Kelly Thomas beating, to do what they did in full view of a hi-resolution video camera. . . . That just goes to show they've done other things. You don't steal $100 from your employer out of the till until you've stolen a $1 and a $5 and maybe a $10 and a couple of $20s."
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2012 - 03:22am PT
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Someone is bullshitting us here, but who?
Who to believe?
ME Climber or the OC District Attorney?
ME Climber:
As for the "blue wall" or "the code of silence" I will tell you tha it is BS in most departments.
Published: April 17, 2009 3:00 a.m.
D.A. says 'code of silence' sank brutality case against deputy
Sheriff says there is no such thing at department.
By ADAM TOWNSEND and SALVADOR HERNANDEZ / The Orange County Register
FULLERTON - The Orange County District Attorney's Office today decided not to retry an Orange County sheriff’s deputy on charges of improper use of a Taser against a handcuffed suspect in 2007.
The District Attorney’s Office, not the defense, moved for dismissal of the felony assault counts against Christopher Hibbs, 45, of Corona.
“Based upon the quality of the testimony by the deputy sheriffs, we decided we couldn’t secure a conviction even if we tried,” said Susan Schroeder, a spokeswoman for the District Attorney's Office.
She said prosecutors were of the opinion that other deputies were protecting Hibbs in their testimony.
“We argued in closing arguments that we felt there was a code of silence - what is it? A thin blue line,” Schroeder said. “We’re very disappointed. It’s very important for the District Attorney’s Office to have ethical and law-abiding law enforcement officers.”
“Given the same evidence at the time of filing, we would do it again,” she added.
There's more:
http://www.ocweekly.com/2011-11-24/news/fullerton-police-department-ron-kelly-thomas/4/
On July 6, the day after the Kelly Thomas beating, Fullerton City Councilman Bruce Whitaker got a phone call from city manager Joe Felz, who relayed information from Sellers: Something bad had happened. In trying to "bring [a suspect] under control," the police had injured a man—but there were several other factors Whitaker needed to know. Thomas had "bolted" from the officers and "fought really viciously," leaving a couple of officers with "fairly significant" injuries. Police suspected Thomas was high on drugs "because he just fought with almost superhuman strength," Felz told Whitaker. And there was probable cause for the detainment: Thomas stole mail out of multiple mailboxes.
The only problem, though, was that information was full of lies: Thomas wasn't high, he didn't steal any mail, he put up almost no fight, and none of the officers was seriously injured. After he found that out, Whitaker made public claims of a deliberate police cover-up. "I think a certain level of wishful thinking that this would just go away may have led to this cover-up of a sort, or at least some sort of a plan that was agreed to, that even despite all physical evidence that it wasn't working, they just adhered to it," he says. "They've really stuck to that plan."
Whitaker already had a suspicion something was amiss with the Fullerton police. In April, 52-year-old Dean Francis Gochenour was found hanged in his jail cell. The Los Angeles Times quoted Captain Tim Kandler as saying there were "no apparent suspicious circumstances" in Gochenour's death. But Whitaker had heard through the grapevine that the officer who booked the inmate had had some type of exchange with the inmate. Whitaker also heard that as soon as the arresting officer found out Gochenour had hanged himself, he took his digital audio recorder off (which all Fullerton police officers wear on their belts, and are supposed to activate before any interaction with the public) and smashed it repeatedly against a stone wall to destroy its memory. Whitaker says he was "troubled greatly" by the allegations, adding that Felz eventually confirmed there was "something unusual" and that someone had destroyed the voice recorder.
And then there was the curious case of Veth Mam:
LOS ANGELES By GREG RISLING (Associated Press) -- The legal problems facing an embattled Orange County police agency mounted Friday after an attorney filed a lawsuit claiming officers wrongly arrested his client and falsely accused him of attacking an officer in October.
Lawyer Garo Mardirossian said at a news conference that several Fullerton police officers wrote false reports about the arrest of Veth Mam, 35, who was later charged with assault, battery and resisting arrest. Mam was acquitted by a jury last month after video he shot of the incident convinced a jury he hadn't committed those crimes.
The lawsuit comes in the wake of the death of Kelly Thomas, a mentally ill homeless man who had a bloody confrontation with six officers last month, parts of which also were captured on videotape. His death has sparked outrage in Fullerton, and Mardirossian filed a claim last week against the city on behalf of Thomas' father, alleging civil rights violations, conspiracy and negligence.
In Mam's case, he was videotaping the arrest of his friend when Officer Kenton Hampton knocked the camera out of his hand and threw him to the ground, Mardirossian said. Police claim Mam jumped on the back of another officer and tried to choke him. The department has since acknowledged they may have made a mistake in arresting Mam.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 11, 2012 - 11:23am PT
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Nice post Dave
Cops have the authority to use force to apprehend someone. They do not have the authority to threaten to punish someone, and certainly do not have the authority to carry out the threat.
The way it should be
PEace
karl
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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May 11, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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I'm sorry, Granite. It's a horrible story, but you're obsessed by your own outrage. You're also generalizing about an entire class of people you can't possibly know. I think your beliefs about them are driving your obsession about the event.
Again, I'm sorry. Everyone here appears to be sorry.
I can't see that either of these attitudes (the people in the story or yours) can help the situation.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 11, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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If you have never fought with anyone who has psych issues or who is blown out on drugs you have no idea what they are capable of. In the last 6 months my small department had 3 officers injured with a 120 lbs 16 year old. All of these cops are big boys and in shape. Have also had another officer break his wrist in a fight and yet another dislocate his shoulder.
So a dead 16 YO would be better than a cops dislocated shoulder? I think that this current situation is tragic because the cops might not have had any other options besides letting the guy get up and run away. It really will take a jury to decide if the force was excessive.
But still, maybe cops need to accept that they cannot have their job and expect to be safe. Maybe they need to act like the Secret Service and like Coast Guard swimmers and like firemen and accept that their job requires sacrifice. They need to accept a few broken bones if that is the cost of keeping a mentally challenges drug-addled homeless guy from getting killed.
Apparently, our current social trend is for complete and utter safety at all cost. Maybe the cops are just following this trend.
When firemen decide to let your house burn because they don't want to scrape their elbows, I think we will be in trouble as a society.
Dave
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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You're also generalizing about an entire class of people you can't possibly know. I think your beliefs about them are driving your obsession about the event.
MikeL, I can only assume that you either did not read the thread, or did not understand it. I did not make the generalization about how most cops feel about this. You are correct that I could not possibly know through my own direct knowledge. It came from ME Climb (a current cop) and Fattrad (a former cop).
ME Climb
We have talked about this case over and over since it happened. When we watched the video at work we were expecting "a smoking gun" or even anything unusual with the use of force. We all agreed we probably would not have phrased things like Ramos did but have all said some variation of "do as I say or you will get hurt!". There is no cop out there who hasnt said this.
I am glad people understand that I am trying to explain things from the police perspective.
Fattrad posted that he'd talked to cops friends in a number of departments and they agreed with him.
Of course the commentary on this is my own.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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but this incident was handled to near perfection.
If that is the opinion of the police, then I would say that we have a problem. I think the use of the threat of violence is the vary thing that set this guy off. We will never know if this guy would have allowed himself to be arrested if this cop had handled it differently, but I read some reports earlier that this guy was viewed as mostly harmless by the police and that he had been arrested before without incident. It would be interesting to find out of that is true.
Great posts Dave.
Graniteclimber. I also like your post though I can see how some policemen might have difficulty with some of what you said. It is hard to have your profession come under intense scrutiny.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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ME Climb:
I would never have made the "see these fists comment" but I have and will continue to warn people that if they don't do as they are told they will get hurt. This is a proven tactic that does work, especially with a street wise criminal.
Dave:
Cops have the authority to use force to apprehend someone. They do not have the authority to threaten to punish someone, and certainly do not have the authority to carry out the threat.
Dave nailed it.
But isn't there a law against this kind of behavior? It's just like if a loan shark or slumlord showed up on your front door with a baseball bat and says, "Pay me the money you owe me or I'll break your mind."
He does't even have to be serious. He could just be bluffing. But it's still assault.
Can you explain why you think this kind of behavior is legal?
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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May 11, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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During the Columbine shootings, the Jeffco police waited outside the high school doing nothing while Harris and Klebold massacred their victims. While these officers whose duty it is to "protect and serve" protected and served themselves, innocent kids and teachers were shot over a relatively long period of time. It is pretty much acknowledged now that lives would have been saved if the police had done their job.
I don't believe that police safety should be the only consideration in situations where there is danger. In Boulder, the protocol has now changed so that if there is a shooter in a school, the *first* officer that arrives on the scene goes in, even if alone. That is a better balance of safety than the way it was handled at Columbine.
Remember, these officers are armed to the teeth with weapons that taxpayers provide them. Tasers, batons, guns, handcuffs, 6 officers against one mentally ill person? The burden should be on the officers to handle the situation in a way that takes the safety of all into consideration. The fact that Fattrad continues to assert that this was the case in Fullerton is so ridiculous that it is hardly worth arguing with him.
While I admit to being biased against MeClimb because he is a police officer, I will also say that I appreciate his reasonable and calm perspective. If I saw this in more police officers I would be less biased.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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There does seem to be a disconnect between how cops (as a group) think they should be allowed to behave and what we expect from them as our public servants.
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Defense-Trainer
Social climber
East LA
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May 11, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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No Fattrad you were taught that public safty is last.
And that you will hurt anyone that you can get away with hurting.
Your just to much of a chicken to use your grappeling trainning to apprehend someone without harming them.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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If I saw this in more police officers I would be less biased.
Amen to that!
I also appreciate MEclimbs attitude. I know that there develops a lot of "us against them" type feelings, so I appreciate that he works to overcome that. Thanks MEclimb.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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May 11, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
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Fattrad, while I find this thread very interesting and relevant, you have no credibility in the thread. . or for that matter on this climbers' site.
I am done discussing the issue with you directly. I am however, open to what MeClimb has to say.
Cheers!
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