Almost inevitable ... over Vernal Falls ... again.

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 101 - 120 of total 360 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

cleo

Social climber

Berkeley, CA

Jul 21, 2011 - 12:37pm PT

you have to prove that the guardrail hurt you then... e.g. it fell over on your foot and caused a bruise.

Mangy Peasant

Social climber

Riverside, CA

Jul 21, 2011 - 01:25pm PT

I recall some people sued the NPS over lighting strike on Whitney and won. I think the basis of their argument was that the NPS violated their own policy about warning signage for known dangers. Can't seem to find many details about it though...

nita

Social climber

chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.

Jul 21, 2011 - 01:33pm PT

Sad story...)-; .....

Cleo, I can recall two law suits filed against Yosemite N.P.. One was the half dome lighting strike deaths, the other was- the lower falls bike crash case.....a least that's my memory...

edit.. just noticed that there is a book on the Half dome lighting deaths..
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34662.Shattered_Air

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Jul 21, 2011 - 01:51pm PT

The judge in the whitney lawsuit said the park was negligent for not having signs saying that the hut on top was dangerous during lightening storms. Up to that point they had had 5 incidents, but still the park hadn't put up a sign. He said it was negligence on the park services part to not have a sign warning people that the hut really wasn't protection, but a danger.

Gene

climber

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:01pm PT

I can recall two law suits filed against Yosemite N.P..

There was also the suit by the family of Peter Terbush, the man killed in a GP rockfall. The suit alleged NPS negligence for (1) lack of a rockfall warning sign, and (2) that the rockfall was caused by sewage drainage from the GP potties. The first part was dismissed. Know idea about part 2.

Peter Haan

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:04pm PT

Gene the second part did not prevail either.

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:09pm PT

Does there really have to be a sign warning of lightning on top of Whitney?

Everybody was taught as kids that lightning usually strikes the highest point, and everybody who hikes to the top of Whitney knows it's the highest point for thousands of miles in any direction.

If you can't put two-and-two together, all the signs in the world won't save you.

cleo

Social climber

Berkeley, CA

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:12pm PT

The Terbush case might have been dismissed precisely because they aren't allowed to sue (I'm not exactly sure here). At least, I know that they spent a great deal of time in court discussing this very issue, and I'm pretty sure they never even got to the science part of it - it was all legalese.

I know nothing about Half Dome (or Whitney), but if there was a hut causing an *increased* danger, then the argument could be made that the park took an action (erecting the hut) and was negligent about it (not warning that the hut increased danger during storms/not erecting a lightning rod), which resulted in injuries. I know nothing about the bike crash either. What was the result?

Point being, you can sue, but the case gets tossed out unless you can prove that the park took action AND was negligent in that action.

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:15pm PT

It wasn't about whether there was lightening, Or that lightening is dangerous. It was that the people who got hurt thought the hut would protect them, but it doesn't. People are used to thinking that buildings are safe in a lightening storm, but this hut has no lightening rod, it has an uninsulated metal roof and is further not insulated inside.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:18pm PT

The most recent SF Gate article has even more info:

Warnings ignored before Yosemite plunge

"He's got a 6- or 7-year-old daughter in his left arm on the edge of the waterfall while his other daughter, about 14 years old, is taking his picture," said Jake Bibee, 28, of Costa Mesa (Orange County), who was hiking with a friend on the Mist Trail that day. "He's on the corner, hanging over the falls. This little girl is screaming bloody murder, and he's laughing, thinking it's a big old joke."

The spectacle infuriated Bibee and several other hikers, some of whom yelled at the man and urged him to climb back over the railing. Meanwhile, apparently inspired by their friend, Badal, Yacoub and David climbed over or went around the railing and waded into the water 25 feet upstream from the fall, trying to reach a rock outcropping partially covered in vegetation about 15 feet from shore.

Gediman said the three waded up to their knees in the rushing waters, were taking photographs and goofing around. He said several witnesses also urged them to get out of the water.

"They basically ignored their warnings," Gediman said. "They did not comply with people telling them it was dangerous".

And here's a reader comment below the story with some good info:

Warning: do knott read before breakfast or lunch...

As one who worked in Yosemite for nearly 10 years, has hiked every trail leading out of the Yosemite Valley and countless miles in the back country, and has heard several accounts of waterfall deaths:

At Vernal Fall, the victims don't usually fall from the Mist Trail but from the pool at the top of the trail, top of the cliff, behind the falls. Everything is safe enough until you go over the rail, too far into the pool, too close to the falls. The surface of the pool can at times be glassy, looking very calm. The appearance is deceptive. That water is moving very rapidly, although smoothly, toward the cliff. The rock floor of the pool is mossy and slippery.Once your feet are swept out from under you, you're headed for the fall. There's nothing to grab to save yourself. There's no stopping. Say Goodbye. You're done.

At the base of Vernal Falls is a deep and turbulent pool. Bodies are sometimes trapped under or against rocks and don't resurface for months, if ever. Search crews must wait until the seasonal flow reduces enough for them to enter the pool. Other times the bodies are circulated violently, like in a washing machine, beaten by the falling water until they are pulverized and the parts wash downstream, and there's nothing left to find. Right now the crews are probably not looking for a body, but for a torso, some limbs snagged on a log or rock at the water's edge, or a skull tumbling downstream.

Several of my friends were on the trail maintenance crews and the Search & Rescue teams and I've heard their stories. The closure of the trail is standard procedure. They say its for the public's safety, and to some degree it is. The most likely reason is that they don't want to have to work around gawkers who will invariably bunch up on the trail to watch, get in the way, and ask questions all day.

cleo

Social climber

Berkeley, CA

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:18pm PT

There were numerous Supertopo threads on the Terbush case - here's one - and some nice lawyer types translated the results into English for the rest of us.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=479260&tn=0&mr=0

(where are the others?)

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:31pm PT

Hardman, Jake was the dude I heard on the radio this morning. He claims he's from Angel's Camp though, and they flew him down to L.A. for the interview he's doing today.

His main point was that, in the future, speak up when you see people doing stupid shit!!!

Caveman

climber

Cumberland Plateau

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:33pm PT

"In North Carolina, Elisha Mitchell, for whom the highest peak east of the Mississippi is named, fell off Mitchell Falls on this very mountain."

Elisha Mitchell was bushwacking at night.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:41pm PT

Here's another article that quotes from the book Off the Wall: Death in Yosemite:

Vernal Fall: Over the brink

At least 17 people have died by accidentally plunging over Vernal Fall since park officials started keeping records, more than any other waterfall in Yosemite. Here are details and circumstances about the first 14:
Who: Lucille Duling, 16, Hollywood
Date: Aug. 22, 1924
What happened: Stumbled and fell as she tried to rock-hop across the river for photos.
Who: Forest Case, 12, Burlingame
Witness describes watching 3 plunge off Vernal Fall
Date: June 29, 1929
What happened: Lost his footing as he waded 20 feet into the river
Who: Keen Freeman, 12, and Orville Loos, 21, Washington, D.C.
Date: July 9, 1946
What happened: Freeman slipped as he tried to retrieve his canteen; Navy veteran Loos tried to rescue him
Who: William Hansch, 40, Sacramento
Date: June 3, 1947
What happened: Mysteriously vanished off the trail to Nevada Fall
Who: Daniel Duda, 12, Baillant, Ohio
Date: Aug. 8, 1965
What happened: Unknown reasons
Who: Roberta Hurd, 7, Jackson
Date: June 21, 1968
What happened: Playing solo in river near lip of fall; slipped unseen
Who: Christine Fuentes, 9, and Yolanda Fuentes, 30, La Puente
Date: June 18, 1970
What happened: Mother and daughter scrambled off trail and went into river to pose for photos
Who: William Ramirez, 22, Gardena
Date: July 11, 1971
What happened: Went swimming 175 feet upstream of fall and got caught in current
Who: Randy Friedman, 16, Hartsdale, N.Y.
Date: July 20, 1971
What happened: Climbed over guardrail to fill canteen and slipped
Who: Leah Good, 49, Yosemite
Date: April 30, 1973
What happened: Cancer-stricken wife of park assistant superintendent never returned from Mist Trail solo hike; body found in pool 50 yards below fall
Who: David Chu, 21, Fresno
Date: Aug. 18, 1977
What happened: Climbed over guardrail and slipped while trying to take a photo looking down over lip
Who: Chintan Chokshi, 24, Ahmedabad, India
Date: July 30, 2005
What happened: Climbed over guardrail and slipped while trying to wash his face
Source: "Off the Wall: Death in Yosemite," by Michael P. Ghiglieri and Charles R. Farabee, Jr., 2007

Most interesting is the guy who was swimming 175 feet upstream and got caught in the current.

mike bodine

climber

bishop, ca

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:48pm PT

hey me and Silver Surfer have solved the Yosemite problem
everyone entering the park gets an IQ test of sorts to test their wilderness mettle and general common sense and then assigned a colored card and lanyard
a red card means you have to stay close to the floor, no water or bridges
a yellow card would allow you up Mist Trail, etc.
there you go problem solved

jewedlaw

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:54pm PT

Lightning rod at the top of Whitney directing the current to the railing at the top of Vernal Falls! Cross it now--I dare you.

nita

Social climber

chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.

Jul 21, 2011 - 02:56pm PT

Cleo, details escape me and my memory bank.... Fuzzy memory, and i could be wrong..
The Half Dome lighting strike family..lost the law suit...

I think the bike crash lady won some money..After the incident, more bike racks were provided at the bottom of the trail, and new signs were posted... stating, No bike riding beyond this point.

You used to be able to ride your bike up to the Lower falls bridge and back down. It was curvy, steep and fast, plus you had to dodge people...i road my one speed up and down that trail many times, but Never when it was busy....