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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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laws! ha, have you spent any time over here?
do some climbing in Europe and you'll quickly learn that the law is not what truly forces climbers to obtain their IFMGA, UIAGM, IVBV, BMG, IML et al.
Enjoy your walmart approach to "mountain services" because if you want to guide in the big mountains over here your either and outsider and not welcome or prepared to earn your way in to the circle with step one, passing the test. European guides look after their own interests quite nicely.
Rob (not good/fast enough on skis to be a guide)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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aye, haggis, 'tis clubby o'er the soup.
bring us an alpha-beta guide to j-tree. love to watch one ski down cyclops.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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Mr. Haggis,
I am a rock climbing guide, not a mountain guide...... Guiding mountains is waaaaay more dangerous than what I do...... I'll keep the dying to my own time. Yes I have guided in Spain (couple different trips) and no one was certified there for anything....... Good buddy has guided in Greece, another guides canyoning all over the Alps....... No Walmart guides her. World class rock climbing guides.
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apogee
climber
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Seth, you really need to start your own guide service, buddy. I'll look forward to having the discussion about the cost and compensation structure for guide services again with you once you have had that experience for a few years. This is not intended as a diss, but until you have had that direct experience, you really can't speak to this issue accurately.
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Seth
May i suggest that you learn the lingo for the area that you a planning on setting up business.
If, in Europe, you say you are a guide then you can guide in the mountains and normally hold an equivalent guiding certificate.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
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John,
You are correct I have never owned a service and cannot speak directly to the costs of "doing business" versus profits. But I do know this, every "boss" I have ever had drives a nicer car than me, lives in a bigger house (dont take much to be bigger than the Sethspool), and has health care. Most of us guides are independent contractors, not employees. Guide services do this in order to keep costs down. But theres a distinction there that no one is willing to recognize or see. To me that changes the financial dynamic of the relationship significantly, or at least should. And yes i know your people are employees, yes thats different. I'm not even sure if the IC thing is legal.......
Its the model of how a guide service operates that I was primarily speaking too. Maybe Guide services should stick to classes/groups and independent guides should handle the private guiding. What I'm saying is this.... You take a relatively small amount of money and then split it 3 ways(guide service/guide/the man). Thats not good for anyone........ I think we, as a industry might have a flawed model from the get go......
Or maybe if we all want to make a real living we should give up our high quality of life and get a real job. That might be better than all the BS politics the guide world seems to create over chump change.
Haggis I have not climbed in either Scotland or the Alps, sorry my verbiage was off. Here in the states we have river guides, fishing guides,tour guides hunting guides, rock climbing guides,mountain guides ect. I have some pretty affluent clients who love me. I will probably do more trips to Spain and maybe even Greece. Kalymnos is rad!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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apogee
climber
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"You are correct I have never owned a service and cannot speak directly to the costs of "doing business" versus profits. But I do know this, every "boss" I have ever had drives a nicer car than me, lives in a bigger house (dont take much to be bigger than the Sethspool), and has health care."
Seth, Zeke's outline of expenses on a per-course basis is dead-on accurate- it's very close to our program, and it is very close to every other program I've managed, worked for, or consulted for. That cost structure is based on the premise of a guide service- you seem to be more of an advocate of the free-agent model of guiding (this is what the AMGA & CGF is trying to serve). There is a role for that model in this industry, specifically in the area of small group technical rock instruction and guiding.
That is, however, a very small percentage of the overall rock climbing participant days that are generated in the larger outdoor/adventure ed industry- the niche of this industry that you work within is relatively small, believe it or not. The 'free agent' model has the best potential within that niche, but really wouldn't work beyond it. Further, even within that niche, there are LOTS of guides who really aren't interested in acting as a 'free agent', with all of the responsibilities it entails (i.e. marketing, logistics, permitting, etc, etc)- they much prefer to work for a service that handles those functions, and focus on delivery of the program or activity.
As to the second part of your statement above, I find it extremely presumptuous that anyone would make assumptions about someone's income or financial stability based on the 'car they drive' or the fact that they have health insurance. At the risk of sounding pejorative, making such assumptions reflects ignorance far more than it does professionalism and maturity.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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Tony your videos were awesome!!!!!!!!!!! If thats whats required to be a guide in Europe, I am simply not interested. LOL
Big John,
why do ya talk down to me man? Zeke's outline of expenses is not accurate. how could you even build that financial model when so much of the guide service trips are intermixed with class/group work. Yes, guide services dont make much on private guiding. I think were both clear on this. But to make a cost analysis based solely on the private 1 on 1 guiding a company does....... No way to many variables..... Dont forget i have owned a very successful business, and am quite familiar with Quick books. I am also very aware of how small my specialty field is. Over 1500 guide days, how many boy scout groups you think I guided to be in the place I am now...... Oh god, if I count I might slit my wrists. Yes the majority of guided rock climbing that occurs in the US is in large group settings, AKA "fast food rock climbing". However I personally know 30+ guides that are very capable of private guiding. Now whether or not they want the responsibility of doing their own thing, different story, you are correct.
And this God damn topic of professionalism. I must be the most successful unprofessional professional rock climbing guide of all time.....No wait Too Strong Dave definitely has me beat....... My definition of professionalism as it relates to our field.
1. Keep your people and yourself safe.
2. Show them a damn good time and morph into what ever they need you to be for the day. IE couple days ago I guided billionaires. Topic of discussion for most of the day the ballet(aka titty bars), dirty jokes and Scotch. Week before I guide a Baptist preacher, i didn't swear for the whole experience(3 days).
3. People are paying big bucks for our time, So I am ALWAYS on time to work. Can't say that for all the people I have paid even more money to work on my house.
4. Have nice gear aka pretty slings, Patagonia clothes or the like, good rental gear, ect,
5. Be patient and base your day around the clients goals, not yours.
6. Be the best teacher possible.
What else do people have to add to this list? This is something good for us to discuss.
For those who know me, I dont have a bad bone in my body...... But damn this page gets my goat.......Buttons pushed, check.
P.S. John my comments about health care, cars, ect might have been presumptuous. Just bugs me when guide service owners say they are not making any money.....Getting rich, definitely not. But not making money.....Come on.
Seth
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Seth,
You threw out the "$300.00" per day rate, not me, so I used that for purposes of "examples" as the average one on one private rate, so again, I just used that one on one example. Clearly a service makes more $ as the amount of clients increase and the one guide can still guide them, still not much profit. So, let’s look @ that: $135.00 x 5 people, full day private guiding average rate
$625.00 Gross Sale
-$160.00 guide fee -(add 25% of this total for employees/ $40.00)
 $20.00 credit card process fee
$14.00 marketing cost
$13.00 liability insurance
$5.00 gear wear and tear
$20.00 reservations staff, plus admin staff
19.00 permit fee/roughly 3% of gross for forest service (less for NPS)
$80.00 internet service, phone bill, rents, fed, state and county taxes, office supplies, accountants fees, computers, web hosting, billing software, web editing software, web site admin and/or upgrades, misc expenses, and postage.
_
Net profit = $294.00, this is the rough maximum that most services profit from a private day with 5 people! If you throw in employee fees for services who have "employees" and then a commission to the guide for a return client ( in some cases 5-20% of day gross), that will in total knock off another roughly $100.00 for the service, bringing the whopping profit total for this 5 person day down to about $194.00 as a low and $294.00 as a high for the service/company. Again, not very large profits, Seth my friend. You can say my figures are wrong all you want, but they are quite correct, as John another guide serv manager is backing me up and I'm positive dozens of other mangers/owners would as well. I don't see how the guides are getting any short end of that stick or "middled" here! Case in point, the amount of work it takes for the service to profit roughly $45.00-$135.00 more per day on services rendered compared to the guide, does (in above said daily breakdown) is just incredibly not in favor of the service or manager and/or owners time, energy and expertise. Guide service ownership and/or managing is not a high paying job and does not have big profits nor does guiding itself/being a guide! Just the fact.
As far as contractors vs- employees goes, you should read up on that. It’s clearly not illegal to pay anyone as a "independent contractor" as long as they get 1099's at end of the year if they make over $600.00 per year. Unless that is, certain specific demands/requirements/restrictions are placed on the individual (guide) in this case that would in the eyes of any given State law "make them employees" as well as service having no independent contractor agreement/contract in place, clearly stating the relationship. If service holds a federal gov operation permit which requires the guides to be "paid as employees" they must by law do so, or in the ind contractor case, if the service is foolish enough to not have a good liability insurance policy that states it covers "independent contractors exactly as if they were employees", this would technically breach the guide services contract with the land manger/permit issuer, because the ind contractors, "guides" would not actually be insured, which is required by most permit issuers. As far as I have read, in the National Park Service mandates, the permits do not require guides to be "paid as employees" and in the National Forest mandates, for example only the "Commercial Wilderness Permits" state guides must be "paid as employees" This is why you see the majority of the major permitted services operating in Joshua Tree National Park, paying the guides as ind contractors and several of them state it on the web, as it is clearly not illegal and stating in public makes it even more clear.
You need to know, I luv ya a ton Seth and respect you as a guide, but I gotta agree with John on this one, I think having your own guide service will/would be a big eye opener for ya and it might change your thinking on all of this guide service profit stuff or at least your perspective on it. I realize you owned a successful business in the past, but the guide serv business is really quite the White Elephant, even compared to the resole biz.
I do totally agree with ya on 2 points, as far as your bosses owning nicer cars then you do, you are 100% right! and I say the following really just cause its funny( but it is true) as long as I have know ya, about 10 years, besides the car I sold you last year for $1,600.00 (which by the way worth 4K) your cars have been worth about $1000.00 on a good day, so no offense bro, but prior to that 1998 Honda CRV you own now, the average homeless person or Junk yard could possess a nicer car then you have in the past, LOL!!! And you bought your house on a credit card with not that high of a limit bro ( I remember the day you bought it) dude, that's just the extreme rarity and I don't think it had running water, plumping, etc, and not sure if it does today. I'm sure your bosses have always had a nicer house than you currently have, again, no offense bro, it’s just kinda funny.
And again, I must agree with John/apogee, judging someone’s wealth, from the car they drive is really not a good measure. Talk to ya soon my friend.
FYI, I know you are a quite the professional guide who exudes extreme professionalism while guiding!
Luv ya till the end Brother!
Cheers,
Zeke
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Tony,
You are soooooooooo awesome my friend and so is Rock Sking! Thanks for the vid's. I'm truly thrilled that I'm just a lowly rock climbing guide!
Cheers and Goodnight,
Zeke
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2010 - 11:35am PT
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John and Zeke,
I'm not saying anybody is getting "rich". Lets be clear with that. Maybe its the distribution of wealth in America as a whole I have a issue with.....But Zeke come on, to book a trip of 5 cost you $80 in
$80.00 internet service, phone bill, rents, fed, state and county taxes, office supplies, accountants fees, computers, web hosting, billing software, web editing software, web site admin and/or upgrades, misc expenses, and postage.
After this I'll quite pushing. Your business are your business, not mine. And I will respect this. When I agree to work a trip for X amount of money, then thats a fair deal simply because I agreed to for for X amount of profit to me. When I believe things are not "fair" I simply wont agree to work. Does that mean I need a check for $279 every time I agree to a contract ....NO. At this point in my career I'm just getting more picky.....
I wish nothing but great success for both Sierra rock climbing school and Wilderness Outings!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. Zeke thanks for the sweet deal on the car, I have driven the snot out of that machine and she has been nothing but good to me. As to my house, I am proud!!!!!!!!!! Running water, yes, out house, yes, privacy and one of the best views and neighborhoods in JT, yes. I would'nt trade my lifestyle for nothing!!!!!!!
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Springdale UT
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viva la sethspool! speaking of 1000 dollar cars...I got a good one for ya!
:-)
Steve
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apogee
climber
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"But I do know this, every "boss" I have ever had drives a nicer car than me, lives in a bigger house (dont take much to be bigger than the Sethspool), and has health care."
You know, Seth, I have encountered this view of program managers an awful lot over the years- it's a view that I, too, once held- and it will probably always persist. 'Salary envy' & misconceptions about 'management' are phenomenon that are not at all unique to this industry. I try very hard to keep my reaction in check, because now I know that most of the time in this industry, it's completely inaccurate and based simply on the perspective of a good person with very limited experience who is all-too-willing to share that view of the world with others.
There is great irony, though, that this phenomenon occurs at this level of the economic and career spectrum, especially in a niche that supposedly prides itself on all of the progressive values we talk about. Your view of the inequity of cost structures and guide salaries is not ever going to change until you've gained some experience in management or ownership of an outdoor program. So I'm going to respectfully end this dialogue with you about that aspect, at least for the time being.
I do have some thoughts about the Independent Contractor vs. Employee issue, though. I'll give that a whack sometime soon.
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Lost A
Trad climber
Bumbling out West
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Hey Coz,
You really sound like a jerk these days! You were once a credible top-notch climber but you now appear to be a bitter soul. Better luck next time around.
Marty
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be climbing guides....
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Lost A
Trad climber
Bumbling out West
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Coz,
Glad you are happy. Just saying that you often come to this campfire with some pretty strong and abrasive verbage.
Marty
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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Mama don't let your babies grow up to be climbing guides....
True story Mighty hiker!!!!!!!
John I agree to disagree with ya. not looking for enemies here. Just strung out on ST.
Coz, Thank you and would love to chat when, I to, return to JT in the fall.
Pork chop, is the Yoda for sale? Your car is bad to the bone!!!!!
May all guides and guide service owners live long and prosperous lives of the quality only few in the world could know. Money or no money we have very high quality of life. Let us not forget........ Peoples vacations are our lives.....
Seth
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apogee
climber
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Maybe we can all agree that this sh*t sucks:
Every time that damn ad pops up, it makes me throw up just a little bit.
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