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jstan
climber
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Feb 27, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
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Earlier in this thread a fellow who, I believe did later end his life, said he felt better after talking with his supervisor. She may have understood what he was going through. But ultimately the fiscal situation left her no choice.
Life is more of a loan than it is a gift. While living, people tend to do those things that give them the best return on that loan. It is only after some threshold has been passed that someone decides to pay off the loan.
I would propose everyone has such a threshold, not just a few. Everyone's threshold is different, and only a few are ever pushed all the way to it.
I think this thread makes a fundamental error when it assumes some sort of defect in a few people. If we work under that assumption, I think this thread cannot contribute.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Feb 27, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
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I think climbers have a greater comfort level with regard to living on the edge. An acceptance as it were that we are all going to die sometime, so why not push it and see how we will fare? Test our limits? Maybe we have a greater acceptance of death, but I think that gives us a greater appreciation for living. So, no; I don't buy it. I've known the odd climber that seemed suicidal, but by and large climbers embrace life, all be it in a way that some would consider a death wish. So yeah, we challenge the beast more than the general population. That does not mean we have a desire to check out without fighting our ass off to live.
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MBrown
Big Wall climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 27, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
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i can see climbers being suicide prone when they cant climb...
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yoginigirl
Social climber
Eureka
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Feb 28, 2011 - 01:27am PT
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Hmmm ~ If that is the truth then it would stand to reason that anyone who: surfs, hang-glides, skis, skateboards, etc,,, is also suicidal. I would have to see the data. From what I know that is not the case, most people do these things to feel fit, alive, and empowered.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Apr 12, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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Maybe this is why I like highballs and want to get a crotch rocket.
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Apr 12, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
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Strange.
Having a tough time right now; I sat down, with my head in a weird way, looking for a distraction. And what thread do I see? I wondered if I had opined.
I saw my posts from the past. I didn't read through ; but then again I didn't have to because I am pretty sure of what I had written. It's like looking in your rear-view mirror and seeing emptiness.
Way past twenty but wondering when the revolving seasons will end. Where are new dreams?
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Apr 13, 2012 - 02:52am PT
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Way past twenty but wondering when the revolving seasons will end. Where are new dreams?
The dream began when I was in the 7th grade, and I was sent to the Illinois State science fair, at Crowne Hall on the IIT campus designed by the famous modernist Mies Van de Rohe.
When I came home, I announced to my folks that I wanted to attend IIT. They said, well, no, son, you ought to apply to MIT.
Via a childhood that, due to my Father's frequent transfers as a regional mgr of TWA, I ended up in a SF Peninsula HS, via Chicago and NYC. Flew back to Greenwich Village and back for a week, on Dad's passes, when I was 15, with 20 bucks in my pocket. I simply showed up at a PS8 School friend, unannounced.
I had to settle for a fine Public School, called the University of California at Berkeley. My parents divorced, and I was on my own at 19. I had to take a year off, during which year I eloped with my wife of 38 years. We put each and one another through School.
1st Dream.
Then, during my year of hell, during the recession starting in 1974, I realized that if I wasn't making a living doing something I was passionate about, I was condemning myself to a lifetime of cubicle hell. Not only had I discovered my life passions, I started on a path which, I hoped, would lead to a balanced and integrated lifestyle. I mean, I loved climbing...but I certainly did not want to Guide, for when play becomes work, what's play?
2nd Dream.
We moved here when I was 27. I'd decided the path to integrating career goals with lifestyle was to engage myself in www.MountainResortArchitecture.com
3rd Dream.
Last Easter marks the 30th anniversary of our move to the Eastside. The A+E firm I'd hired onto went out of business in 2 years, due to the recession of the early 80s. Which I'd anticipated, seeing all of the vacancies in Mammoth - I'd applied for a leave of absence from the Graduate program at Cal, for what I'd thought would be a 2 year sabbatical. Overdrawn $375 at the bank (having not been paid in a couple of weeks), and lacking busfare back to Berkeley, I decided to start my own architectural practice - with a 1 year old daughter.
4th Dream - Total Immersion. What did we have to lose by trying? even though no one was building anything out here. We learned how to ski (for free, at the Lift, before we were advanced enough to handle the backcountry of the Crest summits).
5th Dream, -
We bought a half acre here, and built our own house. Our choice of locale had to do with self-medicating for severe stress, CV difficulties, peripheral neuropathies, and everything that goes with being the sole breadwinner and Chief Rainmaker of a firm who went from $15/hr to $75/hr in one week. By running 7 miles through the Milks every other morning before work (to which I'd show up whenever I felt like it); free weights, yoga, nordic track and xc touring...and, of course, bouldering every Wednesday after work, when the acetylene sky disappeared behind Mt. Tom.
6th Dream -
My 1996 laminectomey, from a compressive lumbar fracture in 1984, failed - I think it was due to the squeeze chimney on Moses Jimmy Dunn Route. I wasn't being reckless - heck, I jugged the 40 feet of 5.11 below, to avoid a shock load. My PK's were advanced from CIII to CII. If you don't feel 100% on Lead, because a fall might induce permanent neuropathy (such as paralysis), then the Lead is no longer fun - in fact, you are at much worse exposure from a less than mortal fall.
Gee, I almost forgot about the OP.
Simple litmus: try taking a deliberate Leader fall, on Yosemite exposure. I dare anyone here to try. I'll bet you will try your hardest not to fall on a TR. Jim Beyer: "No, I don't have a death wish; I have a Life
wish."
Of course, when I hired Kevin to Guide me up Moab trophies, he was always very peculiar, and adamant, that that I remain well back from the Rim, and stayed tied in, until his supervised descent. I didn't need to ask why. I guess it does happen.
7th Dream-
In 2010, I was stiffed for $40,000 by a client. Having cleared out our life savings in a futile effort to absorb the loss, we were finally forced to sell our rental property, which netted a positive cash flow of $1,000/mo. Only after the sewer lateral failed, and flooded out both the house, and the tenants. About $10,000 in uninsured loss.
There's much more serious trouble on my planning horizon. And these entanglements pale in comparison to living in chronic pain for 14 years - the meds are almost as bad.
8th Dream-
Alright, you take it from here. What would your do in my shoes. Heck, I actually did a Sierra Peak FA just in 2010, failed to mention it.
Young people in their 20s, particularly men, go thru some dark and evil years. Often w/o any obvious precipitating factors. I lost my best friend (to a cancer that I insisted he see a Dr. about immediately, instead of writhing in pain on his office floor), my mistress, and work prospects, all within 1 month, 14 years ago...same time as I lost climbing, running, skiing during my lunch hour, to CII PK's.
No, clinical depression is not something you can "snap out of." I'm on a very effective SSRI med. Guess what I feel like doing every time I try and discontinue them (because I'm such a bitchen' strong Man)?
Tell you what: let's enter into a suicide pact. One condition: you must wait for 15 years. You're best years are quite a bit ahead of you. Nearing 60 myself (saw that guy in the mirror again yesterday), it's only of late that I've noticed that architects seem to do their best work in their 60's and 70's (if they live that long). It takes a certain touch, a maturity, to design something that will stand for at least a hundred years. And be accountable for it.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Apr 13, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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Tobia, It seriously brakes my heart that you are suffering )-;... wishing you brightness and comfort..
Hold on to your faith...
Sending up prayers for you....
Please talk to someone... don't be alone with your thoughts...
Saludos..
Love.. nita
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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This has been on my mind all day.
How can we better support each other and do more to prevent this?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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More time. That's what you want, and what everyone wants. Encourage anyone you suspect is going down that road to just give it more time.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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A few of us were going sailing one Saturday on my boat. Among us was one of my engineers and a very close friend. He was totally incoherent, as in "not in control". We never left the dock, but we couldn't get him settled either. Eventually he left us. He washed up in Half Moon Bay a day and a half later, having shot himself in the head before he went off the bridge.
If you know someone in distress, don't f*#k around. Dial 911 and get them help. We're not trained for this, all we can do is recognize the signs and punch the numbers.
I knew Hank was going to kill himself, and when my phone rang I wasn't shocked. I'll never stop thinking that I could have saved him with a phone call.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Sal, perhaps you could have but more likely not. Don't beat yourself up, simply alerting the authorities is still a long long ways from diagnosing and effective treatment. Mental illness is a difficult and challenging condition for any family member or friend to deal with.
The one thing we can all do is talk about it, mental illness in this country is stigmatized and completely misunderstood. It is so unfortunate that most think of it as some sort of behavioral issue or weakness which is akin to thinking heart disease is a character flaw.
Statistically 3% of the population has a severe and chronic psychotic illness according to the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill or NAMI. My family has a loved one with schizophrenia I can tell you without professional help and medication he would be a sad statistic. These people suffer beyond anything we can imagine, it's real to them and it requires medical treatment for a successful outcome.
I'm glad this thread was bumped up given the recent tragedy related here on ST. It's too soon for me to comment, people need space to grieve. That said without public dialogue and acknowledgement that mental illness is like any other unfortunate condition caused by a body's disease we'll force those suffering to hide beyond reach stigmatized by societies lack of understanding.
Charlie D.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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gf, that is well and good but I would bet that the vast majority of suicides
are unrelated to internet bullying. And calling 911 is just a bandaid, if that.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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[url="http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-lethal-methods"]
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John M
climber
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great post Charlie D.
kabalarch.. what was your purpose in posting that link?
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Gosh, I was just trying to help expedite matters!
Just kidding, of course. It's an interesting site. Instead of "feel good" talk, its cold, matter of fact, presentation of methods, and statistical probabilities of success rates associated with various techniques is a pretty good, non judgmental, disincentive.
For example, if a benzo OD were attempted, it would take at least 2,000 mgs of xanax, and you'd have better odds of success at a casino.
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John M
climber
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thats cool. I get a bit sensitive about that stuff. It is an interesting site.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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I didn't read all the posts but went to see Doug
Robinson give a presentation that's really pertinent and comes as close to explaining why we like risky adventure. He has a new book out, "The Alchemy of Action". A great read and a new look at understanding why we do what we do. I don't know if he's chimed in here but I humbly recommend it as an explanation to the OP.
May be on his site at movingoverstone.com
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sadly, some climbers burn with a light too bright to sustain . . .
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