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wildone
climber
right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:27pm PT
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THE AUDACITY! eh, hootervillian?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:28pm PT
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Yeah Fattrad, I read the article, so what's new, especially from a hardliner. Of course, to you, all muslims are hardliners.
What is your point, exactly? Throwing up links to the obvious is not making obvious what you mean.
So what would you do, kill all muslims in case any of them should decide to kill us first? The point that you appear to make, on several threads, is that we are in a long battle with the non-christian world, muslims to be precise (at least in this case - who's next... atheists and agnostics, Jews, Hindi, Buddhists, liberals, scientologists - wait a minute now there's a thought on the last one) and that we ought to take pre-emptive steps and eliminate all of them before they get us.
Sounds like the sort of thinking the mad mullahs have. You fundamentalist neo-cons should get together with the mad mullahs and... oh wait a minute, you already have.
so what is the pact that you all have made? Kill all the infidels and non-believers first, then take each other on? Rapture anyone?
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:34pm PT
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Fatty-
-Your investment in Coulter-style propoganda is pretty emabrassing. Still, if you consider Kerry the 'biggest loser in the Senate' also consider that your boy Bush only beat him by 100,000 votes.
-The SFC article says 'Iran is scary.' Is that supposed to be news? My argument this whole time has been 'Why is Bush fabricating evidence against Iraq when there is real evidence that Iran and N. Korea are chasing nukes?' This is also why I don't support more nuclear reactors in America, it sets a bad example and ruins our credibility when trying to pursue non-proliferation goal. There is far too much of 'Do as we say not as we do' in our foreign policy.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/22/60minutes/main595214.shtml
How much effort do you make not to send them money? Cheney was doing business with Iran and Iraq all throughout the 90's. He didn't seem to mind their way of doing business then.
-I'm not arguing that these countries aren't a threat in some manner, particularly against Israel. I am arguing that your methods are counterproductive and only help perpetuate the problems. All of the countries/players involved in this mess are ones that the Unites States has manipulated or heavily influenced in some manner over the past 30 years. OBL got US money and training as did many of his underlings. Saddam was coddled by Reagan/Bush. The Saudis get prime treatment from us. Iran elected a president that we assasinated and then put them back on the road toward dictatorship.
This is all a legacy of our manipulation and self-interest. If we wan to see a real difference in another 30 years we need to start doing something differently. That means cutting the amount of power that they have over us. It means cutting down on foreign policy based on economic motivations. As you said "we just want them to sell us their oil at whatever price they want." What you meant to say was "we want our oil companies to sell us their oil at whatever price we want."
Your status quo isn't working. Something has to give and your tactics seem to be breeding more contempt and hatred for the US, not less.
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Hootervillian
climber
South of Duck Creek, Scott Co., IA
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:39pm PT
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Probably won't get the full 6 percent on this one though- Custom build, needs Work.
Need help selling remodels?
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:42pm PT
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You've got to admit, it's bracingly simple.
Thus explaining the Repub "platform" appeal to so many...
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:45pm PT
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Everything is always simpler when you can paint 'them' and 'us' cleanly. It's the 'action movie hero' syndrome.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 26, 2005 - 03:45pm PT
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Fatty it isn't just Republicans, it is Americans. We do it on this forum labeling eachother 'lib' or 'con.' It is definitely present, front and center, in Republican rhetoric regarding foreign policy. The 'you are with us or against' us echos through conservative media and political speeches.
You can state it however way sounds the friendlitest, but you want to invade most of the countries on one level or another and then replace their governments with ones that will be more pro-western. That is nothing that we haven't been doing in one form or another since WWII.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 26, 2005 - 06:08pm PT
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We never invaded East Germany or the Soviet Union. They've changed.
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Festus
Mountain climber
Antelope Valley
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Oct 26, 2005 - 06:12pm PT
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Dr. Kervorkian to Fattrad: "Sometimes it is the only choice."
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Oct 26, 2005 - 06:20pm PT
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"the only way to change intransigent regimes (secular dictators/oil crazed sheiks/Islamic nutjob Mullahs) is by force"
please list all the "secular dictators/oil crazed sheiks/Islamic nutjob Mullahs" whose "intransigent regimes" have been miraculously transformed by way of the application of military force, and describe how the countries in question are now and have been stable politically, and how the lives of those who live in those countries have improved.
you watch too many movies.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 26, 2005 - 06:47pm PT
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"You are correct, the only way to change intransigent regimes (secular dictators/oil crazed sheiks/Islamic nutjob Mullahs) is by force"
I didn't say that...you did. And that might be true, but who are we to change them? My point is that your guys have been pleased as punch to maintain a cadre of secular dictators/oil crazed sheiks/Islamic nutjob Mullahs so long as they sold us oil and let our companies do business there. We could have been implentin slow pressure to change for the past 30 - 40 years but instead we have simply helped the current bunch of losers entreanch themselves. So now that it hasn't really worked out you argue "oh we gotta invade..its the only answer." The whole attitude of American foreign policy needs to change.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 26, 2005 - 07:42pm PT
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Meanwhile, House Repubs are making it more difficult to obtain student loans:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_go_co/congress_budget_cuts
I'm so glad that they decided to get rid of the estate tax instead of funding frivolous programs like student aid. It's nice that trust fund babies can now buy bigger boats instead.
You can never look the other way with these as#@&%es in charge of things.
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Hootervillian
climber
Rob Field, OB
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Oct 27, 2005 - 12:10pm PT
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"This is the US's first attempt at social and political change in that region. In the past we merely changed out the leaders,..."FT
Is it just me, FT, or did you just downplay the role of leadership?
http://www.gop.com/
I seems to me that 'leaders' appeal directly to the needs of "social and poitical change" and posess remarkable "social and political" vision when the occasion arises.
How about this-
"This is 'our' attempt at social and political change in 'this' region. In the past we merely changed out the leaders..."
Your almost there FT, you just got the wrong back yard.
Ed. I got a rake, you got a leaf blower, keep you ear plugs in.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 27, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
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Strong economies are built on knowledge. Strong democracies are built on knowledge. Strong societies are built on knowledge.
Boy, I am glad I got my student loan when I did (a long, long time ago in a galaxy far far away). I'd hate to be a student now.
Edit
Hooter, don't you just love the map of the United States on the GOP's home page. It's just about all red, but if I remember correctly, some months back there was a thread that showed what the real map(s) looks like demographically etc, and it sure isn't what the GOP map looks like. A winning margin of what, 1%, and these jokers think they have a mandate. Talk about delusions of grandeur.
Gives new meaning to "the only good red is a dead red".
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2005 - 12:41pm PT
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Yeah, 'cuz that sure worked well when we tried it in Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador, the Phillipines, Panama, and Vietnam.
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Hootervillian
climber
Rob Field, OB
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Oct 27, 2005 - 12:44pm PT
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Jody's evil twin,
Are you counting on the leadership of Bush, Cheney, The Israeli guy, Saudi Abdullah, et al? If so you are quite naive. They must all be replaced with better leadership.
Hooter.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 27, 2005 - 12:59pm PT
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touché
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Hootervillian
climber
Rob Field, OB
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Oct 27, 2005 - 01:04pm PT
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"... I considered it fitting, given the rocky terrain..." the Man in Black
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 27, 2005 - 01:17pm PT
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"Sharon ...voted most likely to bomb Iran,"
Is that what his high school yearbook says?
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Hootervillian
climber
Rob Field, OB
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Oct 27, 2005 - 01:22pm PT
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the big picture-
Tool... http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/27/business/worldbusiness/27oil.html
Some would say:
Bush - shill, felon, traitor, but implementation has been weak and communication needs improvement.
Cheney - chilling felon, shill, traitor, profiteer and knows how to explain it to the populace and media.
Sharon - car-bomber, fascist, voted most likely to bomb Iran, build the permanent border fence and then bomb enemies.
Saudi Abdullah - cartel-ruler, yo daddy, sells us as much oil as we need (great), then uses 20% of the money for OBL, Hamas, radical madarass, only goes after OBL when personally threatened.
In general a very good group.
Ed. someones knocking on my door.....
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