U.S. economy and illegal immigration (ot)

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paul roehl

Boulder climber

california

Apr 21, 2009 - 11:57am PT

Now that is a remarkable post. Well written and heartfelt. Very fine.

dirtbag

climber

Apr 21, 2009 - 12:04pm PT

seconded

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 12:10pm PT

And here some of you callously call them criminals and tediously stick by your 'rule of law'

Maybe we should just open the borders wide open, hell there are a lot of Africans dealt a 'bad hand' that should be allowed to come here too. After all, they're just people too.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 12:38pm PT

I just love how the "racist" card always gets played in the immigration debate.

So if I support ANYBODY immigrating to this country lawfully (which I do), I'm not a racist? But if I disapprove of illegal immigration, suddenly I'm a racist.

pretty weak.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 12:56pm PT

If somebody wants to immigrate here and the meet all the requirements put forth to them, I welcome them.

You know, we do have requirements in place for a reason, right?

dirtbag

climber

Apr 21, 2009 - 01:12pm PT

I kind of agree Fatty.

Of course, McCain later caved in to the Michael Savage wing of the party and disowned his previous policy.

bachar

Gym climber

Mammoth Lakes, CA

Apr 21, 2009 - 01:17pm PT

Illegal?

It's funny how gringos can't remember too much of their own history - like the illegal U.S Invasion of Mexico ( known by gringos as the Mexican American War).

" I do not think there was ever a more wicked war than that waged by the United States on Mexico. I had a horror of the Mexican War, and I have always believed that it was on our part most unjust. The wickedness was not in the way our soldiers conducted it, but in the conduct of our government in declaring war. We had no claim on Mexico. Texas had no claim beyond the Nueces River, and yet we pushed on to the Rio Grande and crossed it. I am always ashamed of my country when I think of that invasion."

Ulysses S. Grant

dirtbag

climber

Apr 21, 2009 - 01:25pm PT

Savage is a skinhead with hair. Period.

Read/listen to what he says about gays, Mexicans, blacks, Muslims, etc and compare it to what openly right wing racist groups say. Savage may dress up his words a bit more PC but there really isn't much difference. It's all hate talk.

drljefe

climber

Old Pueblo, AZ

Apr 21, 2009 - 01:27pm PT

No mas muertos.

Humanitarian aid is never a crime.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 21, 2009 - 01:43pm PT

Will break my no politics pledge here.

For the millionth time, for those who's common sense utterly fail them - there is no 'illegal immigration' problem; there is only an illegal employers problem. Want to end 'illegal immigration' overnight? YES - OVERNIGHT.

The solution is simple and was available and at hand every day of the past eight years: divert the majority of INS enforcement resources to coordinating with state and local governments to police employers. Conduct raids and do nothing to the immigrants found - just fine the employers $10k per 'illegal' each and every time you find one. Keep it up at a brisk pace for three years and there will be no 'illegal immigration' problem in the U.S. - none.

Do that without a program for guest workers and an attainable pathway to citizenship and you will have chaos and disaster. But, the solution to the problem is simple, affordable, and already in place.

This is another Rovian [social] issue playing to the most base racial instincts and bigotry for political gain on one hand while entirely protecting the corporate culprits responsible for the problem on the other. Anyone buying into the issue who doesn't come to that conclusion is a) a rightwing politician b) employer or their lobbyist or c) is being completely played for a fool.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Apr 21, 2009 - 01:50pm PT

There isn't an illegal immigration or employer problem there is a reality problem. There is a huge gap between the way the world actually works and the way you all wish that it would. No concrete stance in either direction is tenable. You need to start by accepting that a certain amount of illegal immigration and illegal employing will happen and let that be ok. From there you can build a sane system that actually works. Real life is messy.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 01:55pm PT

HDDJ, I'm mostly in agreement with that.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber

San Francisco, Ca

Apr 21, 2009 - 02:00pm PT

Humanity ebbs and flows in and about the continents, no matter what Rush wants. I'd do the same thing if I was poor and had a family to feed.

And before we get too dewey eyed about the land we took from Mexico, please remember that Mexico only had that land because Spain took it away from the natives. How many folks in California spoke Spanish before the Spanish subjugated them, burned them at stakes and put them in mines? Mexico lost its land because it had difficulty colonizing and controlling its northern provinces.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 21, 2009 - 02:25pm PT

HDDJ, the 'reality' is that immigrants are infinite, temporary, and mobile - it is utterly futile pursuing them. Anyone interested in seeing the problem brought under control will speak out for resources being focused on the demand side and employers who are finite in number, largely permanent, and have known, fixed locations.

It isn't rocket science, it's common sense applied to resource allocation and management.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Apr 21, 2009 - 02:35pm PT

"HDDJ, the 'reality' is that immigrants are infinite, temporary, and mobile - it is utterly futile pursuing them. Anyone interested in seeing the problem brought under control will speak out for resources being focused on the demand side and employers who are finite in number, largely permanent, and have known, fixed locations.

It isn't rocket science, it's common sense applied to resource allocation and management. "

I agree, however the reality of a universal crackdown on employers is that strict rules on employers WILL inadvertently create employment burdens. It's just the way things work. Solely focusing on employers ignores the root of the problem, which is a terrible economy in many parts of Mexico and Latin America. There is no one solution and there is no "overnight" solution.

jahil

Social climber

Does this rock make my ass look fat?

Apr 21, 2009 - 02:46pm PT

Hi
I'm an immigrant to this country, and I had the misfortune to be an illegal for several months due to a SNAFU at the American consulate. I got my papers sorted out, and for those for whom it matters I've been a citizen for 10 years and no, I have never been on welfare or any other kind of hand out. So heres the view from across the pond from an ex illegal, my family were Asian immigrants to Britain, where I was born.

I've heard the same debate in both this country and the UK from people over the years who claim not to be racist but just want to have a debate about jobs for those who are legal, local and were here first.
I have never met those people on this forum who are doing this, I know that if you are climbers we share a common bond, and hey it would be pretty cool to climb with some of you

But when you start this debate you pouring fuel on the fire for those who are maybe not so rational.
I had the crap kicked out of me on more than one occasion by skinheads in England yelling the same sort of stuff that has been posted on this forum. Taken out of context by someone who's idea of a debate is wielding a baseball bat and your debate is a lot less pleasant.

I can't (and wouldn't) stop you from having this debate, but just be aware that some of us have some deep wounds from the times that we have dealt with this before. You really have no idea what you are doing.

steve

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Apr 21, 2009 - 02:52pm PT

DMT- Wait so now I'm not only a racist but I'm a Republican as well?

couchmaster

climber

Apr 21, 2009 - 03:39pm PT

Healy nails this. You have to have the ducks lined up and that involves a working ID card to start with. Social sec cards are easy to make and flash to an employer. The other alternative is a gov't database of matching up who goes with the SS number. This may be more palatable to folks fearful of a "Player Piano" style government. In either case, Social security cards are easy to forge and Illegals can then also easily get a state drivers license, often using a false name.

Somehow I find it interesting that the terrorist guys don't just walk into this country and do this if it's really that easy.

-I digress-

Part of the ducks lined up is making sure that legal aliens such as guest workers (and employers in need can get these folks) can get in expeditiously and get where they need to be in a rapid and easy manner: something which isn't happening currently.

Jabril: I saw that happen in London. Short version was 5 or 6 young punk as#@&%es took down a black guy from behind and were beating the hell out of him. I attacked and they ran. It still surprised me that it occurred, and think that we all must step up and call bullshit when we see stuff like this.

On a side note, I was riding my bike on the boardwalk in SC today. Guy in front of me was a latino dude. Van full of skinheads drives by and yells "white power!" at us (I've got a beard and I'm pretty tan). For such a liberal town, there are a lot of nazis here, no joke...

Same thing happened to my son not long after he'd gone off to college last year. He turned to look and the person who had yelled it (from behind him) didn't step forward. Obviously a pussy that knew he needed his ass kicked.
_

Jstan -on the money as well re: nuclear power/total costs. However, have not the French, via standardization and better resource utilization, effectively decreased the total cost for nuclear power? I think that it's very similar to what Bluering postulated on the first post: ie, what is the total cost of illegal immigration? You've got schooling, you've got health care, you've got the cost of hiring how many untold border guards (more) plus all that accompaniment expense, you've got uninsured accidents, murders etc etc etc. Lots of things. I hardly think asking the question makes a person a racist, even if he calls them criminals. Which is what they are. They walked over the backs of law abiding folks who are sitting down in Mexico having done the correct paperwork, but can't get in cause of these folks.

And that's not right. In the scheme of how much criminality is in it, very little. It's not murder or not like beating a lady over the head and stealing her purse. But it is massive, it is widespread, and it is costly: and it should be dealt with so that employers who need workers can get them and legal workers can get jobs like Elcapinyoass says: it's needed.