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cat t.
climber
california
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Jan 22, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
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When was the last time you heard a man complain about sexist treatment? You, endlessly... Also from men all over the internet, constantly. The internet is a whiny place, though.
but there are societal biases against men that are well entrenched in our society and sexist by the dictionary definition of the word. I never hear feminists acknowledge that Who are you talking about? Who are these feminists that you think you know? As a self-identified feminist who is friends with pretty much only self-identified feminists, I can guarantee you that we talk about these things all the time. Paternal leave is even harder to come by than the insufficient maternal leave given in the US. Why can women opt out of having a child, but men cannot? (Consensus amongst my peer group is that while legislation is still being enacted to create huge obstacles for women seeking abortions, or even birth control, men should help with the financial burden, but given open access to birth control, men should be able to sign away both parental rights and financial responsibility.) Why are male kids lagging behind in school? Why are middle aged white men plagued by such high suicide rates? We talk about these things just as much as we talk about the issues that affect women. Here types a feminist, telling you I care about societal biases against men, and you still insist that you know better, that feminists only care about power over men?
I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I've heard that statement many times in regard to giving men sex and getting something in return. My generation of feminists said no thanks, we'll work 2 or 3 times harder than a man to get to the same place. The next generation said, why should we have to?
The third generation is saying we don't even want to hear mention of it.
The later generations still have to meet higher standards to get to the same place, but because our moms did it first, we know it is possible (and thus it's not quite as hard).
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jan 22, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
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The crazy thing is is that feminists love to be objectified in just the right circumstances with just the right person. Wow, are you insinuating that women who don't want to be catcalled on the street by random men like to have sex with their boyfriends (or girlfriends/husbands/wives)?! THE HARLOTS!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jan 22, 2017 - 07:22pm PT
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Each gender sees the situation from our own perspective.
Personally, it does not give me much consolation that of all the murders in the U.S. during a certain time frame, only 23% of them had women as their objects. I'm fairly sure the rape statistics would give me even less consolation.
And yes, emotions and intuitions are particularly important for a woman being accosted by an unknown man. Many of us if not most of us, have stories of when things just didn't seem right and we took action before we were overcome. In some cases this meant simply crossing the street and asking another woman or a couple to walk with us. Sometimes we fled for our lives, sometimes (in my case) I unsheathed my old fashioned long handled super sharp ice axe and prepared to fight to the death.
Granted, I may have had more encounters of this type than most since I traveled around the world on my own as a young single woman. Bangkok and India were scary at times, but I have been physically put upon more often in the Bay Area actually. I was standing on street corners late at night in San Francisco waiting for street cars when the Zebra killers were operating. One of my most enlightening moments was late at night when a carload of guys who could have been them pulled up and started harassing myself and two other women, one of whom pulled a pistol out of her purse and chased them away.
Maybe the woman you think is overly sensitive has had such an experience. It might be worth keeping in mind before getting upset at her for being overly sensitive.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 22, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
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Maybe the woman you think is overly sensitive has had such an experience. It might be worth keeping in mind before getting upset at her for being overly sensitive. This is it, in a nutshell. The last time I checked, 15 or 20 years ago, the statistic for young women who were surveyed for some form of familial sexual abuse history, whether by a father or an uncle, or brother or whomever was close, was somewhere in the 30% range. Blew my mind. Somebody check me on those stats, but it's significant.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jan 22, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
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The sexism towards men in our society that I experience has nothing to do with abortion or parental leave. Those are issues that indirectly affect women, and as such, are an understsndable topic amongst your feminist friends. What about the draft? What about false accusations of sexual assault or harassment? What about restraining orders against men requested by women? What about the difference in courtesy shown to men at many places of business? What about unequal societal expectations of income, alimony in divorce, and obligations in dating?
I think that all issues that affect men indirectly affect women, and all issues that affect women indirectly affect men. Policies that oppress women have negative effects on men, and as we try to untangle these biases and create more equal policies, I think it's not surprising to expect some oscillations around the ideal.
Selective service? Women should be required to register. Most of the women I think that no one should be required to, but as long as men are, so should women.
False accusations of sexual harassment? I think we're at a weird spot, historically. Sexual harassment in the workplace has been overlooked for so long, and assault is drastically under-reported. Obviously due process should be afforded to anyone accused of a sexual crime. I can't think of some magical clearcut legal solution here. All prosecutions are going to have some false positive rate, and eyewitness testimonies are generally rife with errors. I think we both know, though, that historically, there have been far more victims (both men and women) hurt by sexual assault than there have been false convictions. When names are released to the public, yes, there are a lot of angry people who care more about accusations than facts...kind of all a landmine.
Unequal societal expectations in marriage, dating, alimony, courtesy at places of business: this is where I think it's the most double-edged. In the paradigm in which men are thought to be brutal aggressors and women are thought to be delicate emotional creatures, then you are going to get this terrible dichotomy in which neither women nor men are held to their full potential. We fail both sexes. If you put someone on a pedestal and insist they cannot care for themselves, what do you think is gonna happen? If you insist that someone is not allowed to show weakness, what do you think is gonna happen?
Feminism includes thinking that women can be awful. Women are capable of brutality; women are capable of evil. Women are not delicate flowers that commit no harm. Women don't need to be taken care of, and they're better off when they take care of themselves. You can't have it both ways.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jan 22, 2017 - 08:26pm PT
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As an aside, why are facts and emotions always presented as being some sort of mutually exclusive choice? They can be pretty darn orthogonal.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 22, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
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She said orthogonal Kev, are you just gonnah stand here all awkward and cocked at a right angle and take that?
(Facts and emotions are a tangle, not so independent)
I reread Davita's piece from the OP. Just as I saw on the first read through, she confines her query to her particular milieu, i.e. twentysomethings+ and rockclimbing. Her prose is direct and relatively clean. Yes, Cat, she's privileged under the vernacular you espoused. The extension of her findings doesn't reach beyond those boundaries. She speaks about the fringe, as you alluded. And she's hoping it stays there (and flattens out). It's less an overarching critique on the current state of feminism in total.
Thanks, Cat, for the nod to the idea of footnoting. My nephew, who is in a graduate philosophy program, suggested the same, even for simple historical narrative.
Pretty much everything I've heard from you and Jan concerning my earlier questions about my writing challenge comports with my thinking. Not that it should or ought to, but it does, so thanks for your perspectives.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 22, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
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This is it, in a nutshell. The last time I checked, 15 or 20 years ago, the statistic for young women who were surveyed for some form of familial sexual abuse history, whether by a father or an uncle, or brother or whomever was close, was somewhere in the 30% range. Blew my mind. Somebody check me on those stats, but it's significant.
The Warbler
That's what I've heard too Roy, and I've had many women tell me about it happening to them.
I suspect a lot of feminist angst is rooted there.
not sure what you meant here, but sexual assault isn't just about "angst," it is a fact of life for women.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 22, 2017 - 09:10pm PT
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When I heard that stat, Ed, it made my skin crawl.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2017 - 11:16am PT
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This whole "words matter" topic isn't just reserved for feminists. In any conversation, verbal or written, whether it be between family members, significant others, co-workers, friends, enemies, etc. there exists the potential for hurting someone with the words we have chosen to use. This can be intentional or unintentional, but it still may leave the person feeling slighted. And it is sometimes difficult to know exactly what those words are. Maybe there needs to be some understanding on both sides of the exchange.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jan 23, 2017 - 03:21pm PT
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The extension of her findings doesn't reach beyond those boundaries. She speaks about the fringe, as you alluded. And she's hoping it stays there (and flattens out). It's less an overarching critique on the current state of feminism in total. Yes, you're right about that. I agree that she was not attempting to comment on the state of feminism--but I do worry that those primed to vilify feminism would read it that way.
My initial post in this thread, on page one, was as follows:
What about this alternative to the "climbing is totally sexist and racist to boot"/"sexism and racism in climbing is totally made up" debate:
Climbing itself is very open and welcoming and, in 2017 at least, is not particularly sexist or racist, but in society at large there still exist many pressures and implicit restrictions on women and minorities that might make them less likely to participate in activities such as climbing. Societal expectation might keep some people away from climbing, but climbing itself isn't sexist.
I still think that's the case, and I wonder if it's a bit negligent to claim that sexism isn't a problem in climbing without acknowledging that it might be a force acting from outside the community rather than one acting within it. That said, I think the Georgie-style "no matter what men do, they're doing it wrong," style of writing isn't helping anyone. It's great click-bait, sure, but it puts everyone on the offensive.
(I am also a little wary of the "but I've not experienced it, so it isn't happening!" argument that the OP article uses. I have personally never met with substantial sexism in the local climbing community, but I cannot really comment on what is happening outside the SF Bay area.)
Edit:
(Facts and emotions are a tangle, not so independent) :) Ha, yes, for any given situation that is true. But I think the capacity for reason and the capacity for emotion are independent, or at the very least they are not inversely related.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 23, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
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No, they, the capacity for reason and the capacity for emotion, are not, or not necessarily, inversely related. That would just be too much irony for one race to handle.
I think that these kinds of issues can hinge on a synthesis of the two, namely emotional intelligence. It's what keeps relationship and social interaction on the rails.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 23, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
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I don't really do debate. By nature, I am more into understanding through collusion.
Not to say dialectic isn't essential. And the Cat/Warbler repartee really crackles. Just what kind of red meat do we need to toss up on the stage to get that show up and running again?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 23, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
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Yes, Kevin, I'm surprised there isn't already a slot in the lexicon for FWA. First women's ascent. Plenty intuitive and less confusing than FFA. (And is it female first ascent or first female ascent, also distinctly different). Whether or not there should be an independent category to begin with is another matter, and I'm not touching that one for the moment.
We could get ourselves back in trouble (lots) by suggesting, FGA. First girl's ascent. But we'd quickly balance that out with a category just for you: FBA. First BOY ascent ... ha!
{edit}
Yes. Heh. Jefe, I think red meat for an argument, at least here, is the more apt alternative to the term click bait.
 and probably scant sex appeal to be had with old climber guys ranging into feminist thought.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jan 23, 2017 - 09:17pm PT
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what kind of red meat do we need to toss up
Coming from tarbuster it sounded sexy for some reason.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Jan 23, 2017 - 10:56pm PT
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Huh.."feminism" was in the thread topic, so I decided to look in.
Strangely enough, nothing in the article, or all the responses got me fired up. I guess I'm not as much of a feminist as I thought I was.
Damn, one day, the inspiring writers will come back...
Cheers
LS
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jan 24, 2017 - 06:26am PT
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You're starting to confuse yourself kevvy, one article at a time mmmkay?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jan 24, 2017 - 07:40am PT
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It wasn't Georgie that "hijacked" the FFA thing, nor did she start the discussion.
That exchange and all the online responses were similar to this episode, with lots of "high profile"/ "influential"/ "pros", writers, editors,and bloggers weighing in.
I believe there was a supertopo thread during that time as well.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jan 24, 2017 - 08:12am PT
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No we're not friends- I just like her zero f ucks style.
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