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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Keep it simple folks...
From Bergsteigen- Basic Rock Climbing, Robert Aleith, 1971
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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That 2:1 up there ^ is interesting because it only uses the rope (no zed cord).
I'm unfortunately sitting in class so i can't go try that right now.
Something doesn't sit right with me about that setup, I can't put my finger on it though....
If you swapped out that right jumar for a hauling device this could be kinda cool.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I don't get the 2:1? It looks like you send half your pull to the wall instead of double to the bag? 0.5:1? Can someone splain me? It would be cool if I just don't get it. I dropped a pulley a couple years ago dooming us to 1:1 only. A 2 pulley system would be neat.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Melissa that was my thought as well. I don't get the 2:1 in that
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Something doesn't sit right with me about that setup, I can't put my finger on it though....
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Steve's example is far mor inefficient in that you have to drop the jug far down, haul till it comes up to you and drop it down again. It's far faster to do it via the Chongo method.
The whole point of 2:1 is to make it easier on you. I can haul a standard mordern big wall load simply by sitting down and exerting no effort. NO EFFORT. Yup 1:1 is faster and easier and if it's NO EFFORT for you then that is what you should do.
BITD, when I was climbing walls and hauling 1:1 was fully gruesome for me and was the hardest work on a wall. Hauling 2:1 has taken hauling off the table for me as far as wall work goes. Now, at 57 years old, I can climb walls and not kill myself, all my little tricks make climbing walls easier FOR ME. Every single little trick I have makes every wall I do a little bit easier.
Someone in Yosemite last year asked me how I can keep going and going and going on the walls at my age when he, far younger than me, was totally hammered after one wall. I told him that at every point I could I used tricks to make things easier for me. I haul good, nutritious food and plenty of it, lots of water, I have a warm comfortable sleeping bags, I have a pillow to ensure that I sleep well. Al of my clothes are top if the line as well as my gear. I also us my tricks to lift heavy things and never my brawn. I usually end up with people volunteering to carry my stuff up to the base is repayment for big wall tips I've helped them with over the summer and I'm willing and able to pay the going rate to get my stuff down from the top.
Lambone one always chimes in that you should just haul 1:1 and get it done so you can get on your ledge faster and drink beer or have a smoke but he's at least 15 years younger than me and I'll be interested to here the tune he sings when he is my age.
Pete always goes on about how you don't have to be in shape for walls but he also is 15 years younger than me. My tricks and my fitness are stacking the odds in my favor so that I'll be able to climb walls for may years to come.
BTW Steve's diagram is completely wrong. The method marked 2:1 is really only 1:1 (and hideously inefficient at that) and the one marked 4:1 is really 2:1.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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That's what I thought. Thanks Mark
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
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It didn't sit nicely with me either at first but upon further examination the 4:1 seems to be a 3:1 with a direction change added on.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Satisfy yourselves...
With a minor in mathematics and physics what do I know anyhow.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aw, shucks - thanks guys. It's gratifying when even Dr. Hudon can pick up a new tip! Mark, I bet that's worth at *least* a pound of New Guinea Dark coffee to you, eh? [HINT]
By the way, your heartfelt thanks are always appreciated on this forum. Your heartfelt thanks on the El Cap Bridge, when accompanied by a six-pack of cold ones, are even more appreciated. {wink}
Matty: glad you're such a quick study! You have to be to operate this thing. And did I mention practising?? Yes, you want to use flat 9/16" webbing doubled on top of the pulley.
Crap - I just remembered one thing I forgot to mention - if you have a "good" pulley and a "not so good" pulley, you have to make sure you put your "good" pulley on top, and your "not so good" pulley on the bottom with the inverted ascender.
"Pete. Why don't you use a load releasing hitch on the cord at your harness to haul?"
Melissa - because it's too big and klunky, although not a bad idea. There's so much crap going on everywhere, you really need to streamline the thing as much as possible, and a load release knot would get in the way. Plus it's not hard to release the tightened clove hitch on pair of carabiners.
You *really* need to adjust the length of the zed-cord PERFECTLY, and you can't do this until you are actually on the wall, because it all depends on how everything is set up, and how it relates to everything else. For instance, are you standing in aiders, or are you standing on a ledge? A foothold can make life a lot better. You just have to figure it out when you're in position, and adjust the zed-cord then.
If Matty redoes his photo, he could show a couple biners clove hitched onto the zed-cord at about the right place.
Oh, I just read down - yes, load release knots really do stretch a lot as well, which would pretty much kill the efficiency of the system. Try the clove hitch on the doubled crabs!
Now - the hard part. For a guy who somehow graduated with a degree in engineering* I find these physics calculations on the hauling systems absolutely flummoxing!
I can tell you with certainty that the system in Steve's excellent diagram above marked as 4:1 is in fact 3:1. [Mark, you're guessing, and guessed wrong] I only know because I have used it every now and then when the haul line above my Junk Show manages to rub against the rock in such a way as I need the extra leverage. I only know it's 3:1 because I recognize the setup, not because I can explain the physics! At any rate, 3:1 hauling on the wall is normally overkill, and the situation described above is the only one in which I use it. 3:1 is a pain to use because you have to put your pulleys right through the haul line, instead of simply "adding it on" with your 2:1 hauling ratchet. Plus when you are hauling, you have to constantly "reset" the inverted ascender and pulley by sliding it back down the haul line.
Ask Kate - she used 3:1 hauling all the way up Mescalito when she soloed it because she didn't then know how to set up the Chongo 2:1 system.
The middle diagram in Steve's picture above sure looks good in theory. I think* - but am knott sure - it's actually 1:2?
Can one of you Rocket Scientist - Tech Weenie - Physics Geeks please explain to this poor engineer* what the mechanical [dis]advantage of drawing #2 is?
C'mon - we have guys on this forum who can calculate to the nearest hundredth of a degree where you can see Half Dome from in California on a clear day, and plot it out on a google earth map. Surely someone actually can tell us what's going on in drawing #2! Paging Ed Hartouni!
Yes, Ian - my grade 10 typing teacher called me the Fastest Typist in the West. This can be a particularly dangerous combination for me when beer, tequila and girls are all involved.
Cheers, eh?
* I graduated last in my engineering class both alphabetically and arithmetically, thus proving I did no more work than I absolutely had to.
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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Steve, your most recent photo shoes the 3:1 but not the 2:1. I also graduated with a BS in physics and don't see how the second system is 2:1.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"I also graduated with a BS in physics and don't see how the second system is 2:1."
Everyone knows what BS is.
MS is More of the Same.
And Ph.D. is Piled Higher and Deeper.
Cheers,
Dr. Piton
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Crap - I just remembered one thing I forgot to mention - if you have a "good" pulley and a "not so good" pulley, you have to make sure you put your "good" pulley on top, and your "not so good" pulley on the bottom with the inverted ascender.
I need to get some new pulleys and came across a couple of these for a good deal. Blue water 2 inch pulley..
The only thing keeping me from buying it is, assuming this is the upper pulley, the biner with the hauling device will be in the v-notch lower section of that pulley, and I'm not sure if this is ideal / ok. What do you guys think? It is pretty similar to the upper part, but slighter smaller. Maybe I'm over thinking it, I just don't want to waste my money
Everyone knows what BS is.
MS is More of the Same.
And Ph.D. is Piled Higher and Deeper.
LOL
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julton
climber
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Steve's example is far mor inefficient in that you have to drop the jug far down, haul till it comes up to you and drop it down again.
The jugs are both anchored in Steve's 2:1. The only thing that moves, besides the rope, is the pulley attached to the foot sling. The rope has the same tension throughout and the foot sling is connected to two strands, ergo it is a 2:1.
If his method works well it's very elegant in that you only need an extra pulley, which you might already take as a backup. Those 2:1 ratchets always seem like a cluster to clip to your harness.
The 4:1 does look like a redirected 3:1 though.
I have BA in physics. Is that any better?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Am I the only one that thinks that simple MIGHT be better?
If you can't haul it, then you're too weak and as such, yer gonna die.
Apply as you see fit.
Methinks the haul lords bring too much crap.....
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raymond phule
climber
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I believe that the middle configuration is 1:2 because the load moves 2 m if move the foot sling 1 m. Not exactly the advantage that you wanted.
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julton
climber
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You're right Raymond, I have it ass-BAckwards. Two strands in this case means twice the load, not half.
How clever to rig a 1:2 hauling system. That would be much faster.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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How clever to rig a 1:2 hauling system. That would be much faster.
Only if your load is really light
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
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I prefer to rig a 1:5 for light loads!
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Hahaha
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