Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
|
Norton!
OK, never mind regarding^^^post.
I see you were referring to the Wiki references at the bottom of your "Wiki" post.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
|
Trip is back!
You looking for some more evidence of the bible's UNFULFILLED prophecies?
How much time you got, Trip, a couple days?
Let us start with the Old Testament:
EZEKIEL'S FAILURES
Possibly the most pessimistic of the Old Testament prophets, Ezekiel proclaimed impending doom upon everyone from Judah itself to the enemy nations surrounding it. The failure of his prophecies to materialize as he predicted makes a compelling argument against the Bible inerrancy doctrine. In one of his doom's-day prophecies, Egypt was to experience forty years of utter desolation:
Therefore, thus says Yahweh God: "Surely I will bring a sword upon you and cut off from you man and beast. And the land of Egypt shall become desolate and waste; then they will know that I am Yahweh, because he said, `The River is mine, and I have made it.' Indeed, therefore, I am against you and against your rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from Migdol to Syene, as far as the border of Ethiopia. Neither foot of man shall pass through it nor foot of beast pass through it, and it shall be uninhabited forty years. I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate; and among the cities that are laid waste, her cities shall be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them through the countries" (29:8-14).
Talk about extravagant rhetoric, we certainly have it in this passage. No such desolation has ever happened to Egypt; there never has been a time in recorded history when Egypt was not inhabited by man or beast for forty years, when its cities were laid waste and desolate, when its people were all dispersed to foreign lands, etc. Bible defenders, of course, resort quickly to figurative and future applications, but their strategy just won't work. Future fulfillments are excluded by patently clear references that Ezekiel made to contemporary characters who were to figure in the fulfillment: "Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him" (29:2). Although Egypt still survives as a nation, its rule by pharaohs ended long ago. Furthermore, Ezekiel identified Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, as the instrument Yahweh would use to bring about Egypt's desolation: "Therefore thus says Yahweh God: `Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage, and that will be the wages for his army'" (29:19). Clearly, then, Ezekiel had in mind a contemporary fulfillment of this prediction. As for spiritual or figurative explanations of the prophecy, just what events in Egyptian history were so catastrophic in the days of Nebuchadnezzar and the pharaohs that they could justifiably be considered a figurative desolation of forty years? Unless bibliolaters can identify such a catastrophe, their figurative interpretations must be regarded as just more attempts to sweep aside another embarrassing prophecy failure.
Ezekiel just as rashly predicted the utter destruction of Tyre, a prediction whose failure has become even more embarrassing to bibliolaters than his doom's-day prophecy against Egypt:
Therefore thus says Yahweh God: "Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea, for I have spoken," says Yahweh God; "it shall become plunder for the nations. Also her daughter villages which are in the fields shall be slain by the sword. Then they shall know that I am Yahweh."
For thus says Yahweh God: "Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, you shall never be rebuilt, for I Yahweh have spoken," says Yahweh God (26:3-14).
Ezekiel's tirade against Tyre continued through three chapters. His prediction was that the city's destruction would be complete and permanent: "The merchants among the peoples will hiss at you; you will become a horror, and be no more forever" (27:36). So sure was he of Tyre's eternal destruction that he repeated it: "All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you: you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever" (28:19).
That this prophecy was never fulfilled can be verified with no more difficulty than a trip to the public library. Ezekiel prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre and that "you (Tyre) shall never be rebuilt" (26:14) and "shall be no more, though you are sought for, you will never be found again" (26:21). History, however, records the fact that Nebuchadnezzar not only didn't destroy Tyre, he didn't even capture it. The New Encyclopedia Britannica (Micropedia, Vol. 10, 1978) said this in reviewing the long history of Tyre:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
|
Let's skip the documentation and go right to the conclusion.
And just remember, I can quote the bible all day.
If bibliolaters would just once in their lives put aside all of their pet theories and take an objective look at the Bible, they would begin to see that the men who wrote the Old Testament were just ordinary religious zealots who thought that they and their people had been specifically chosen of God. The fanaticism with which they believed this led them to proclaim absurdly ethnocentric prophecies that history has proven wrong, much to the embarrassment of Bible fundamentalists who desperately want to believe that the Bible is the verbally inspired, inerrant word of God. They have no substantive proof on their side. All the proof declares very definitively to anyone who really wants to know the truth that the Bible is a veritable maze of nonsense and contradictions.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
|
The whole point is that the Israelites failed to follow through on driving out the Jebusites, and also took Canaanite women as wives and worshiped their gods etc., to the point of child sacrifice to Baal etc. God was more then willing to fulfill His promises otherwise. Read the Book. Anyone can pull out verses and ascribe there own agenda to there meaning.
edit: This IS objective, and furthermore prophetic in that man could not fulfill the law(obey God)and needed a Savior. `
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
|
"And just remember, I can quote the Bible all day."
There is a difference between quoting the Bible, and going to Google or Wiki and pasting.
Quoting the Bible is from memory, and with a given application and significance to the specific verse, or in your agenda, the perceived lack thereof.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
|
The men who wrote the Old Testament were just ordinary religious zealots who thought that they and their people had been specifically chosen of God. The fanaticism with which they believed this led them to proclaim absurdly ethnocentric prophecies that history has proven wrong, much to the embarrassment of Bible fundamentalists who desperately want to believe that the Bible is the verbally inspired, inerrant word of God. They have no substantive proof on their side. All the proof declares very definitively to anyone who really wants to know the truth that the Bible is a veritable maze of nonsense and contradictions.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
|
Regarding Tyre, Nebuchednezar did drive out the king and when they attempted to rebuild on the island Alexander the Great built a causeway out of driftwood from the mainland and destroyed the attempt. Prophecy of Ez. was fulfilled.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
|
Norton- "The men of the Old Testament were just ordinary religious zealots...nonsense and contradictions."
That is a direct quote from Farrel, is it not?
You should really take the time to study the Bible and come to your own conclusions. This Farrel guy is clueless!
|
|
Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
|
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Stephen Roberts
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth."
Henry Louis Mencken
"The sense of spiritual relief, which comes from rejecting the idea of God as a supernatural being, is enormous."
Sir Julian Huxley (Religion without revelation)
"If the Bible is mistaken in telling us where we came from, how can we trust it to tell us where we're going?"
Justin Brown
"The few took advantage of the ignorant many. They pretended to have received messages from the Unknown. They stood between the helpless multitude and the gods. They were the carriers of flags of truce. At the court of heaven they presented the cause of man, and upon the labor of the deceived they lived."
"We find now that the prosperity of nations has depended, not upon their religion, not upon the goodness or providence of some god, but on soil and climate and commerce, upon the ingenuity, industry, and courage of the people, upon the development of the mind, on the spread of education, on the liberty of thought and action; and that in this mighty panorama of national life, reason has built and superstition has destroyed."
"I believe in the religion of reason -- the gospel of this world; in the development of the mind, in the accumulation of intellectual wealth, to the end that man may free himself from superstitious fear, to the end that he may take advantage of the forces of nature to feed and clothe the world."
Robert Ingersoll (Why Am I an Agnostic?, North American Review, December, 1889)
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2010 - 12:57am PT
|
You anti bible, anti Christianity guys are so stuck on this bible thing.
You have this huge negative hard on for it.
It's consumed you.
It's taken over your lives.
If what you have is so much better then you would not be attracted to the lower.
You are like moths flying into this fire.
A clean vision goes over the top ......
|
|
JLB
Trad climber
Smiths, AL
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
|
no Ed you said I was changing the definition of science, which is not even close to being true. If you read any of my posts, you will see that I have done nothing but advocate thinking for yourself. That is what I do instead of just taking what you say for the complete truth - when I think though it, it doesn't make sense. I am sorry, I cannot follow your logic. I can agree to not agree with you, I don't know why you guys have such a hard time doing that. I am ok with you guys not believing what I believe.
You guys are welcomed to believe that you arrived here through evolution. I believe you are worth way more than that - created for a purpose, to love and be loved, and be a part of something that is not just a random ocurrence of chemicals coming together.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
|
JLB - I don't care what you believe, just don't call it science...
...what science appears in the Bible is thousands of years old and outdated by a long time.
But don't fool yourself with your own thoughts, easy enough to do...
if you believe in the Bible and in a God, that belief is a personal choice which is not based on physical evidence, it is based on faith. How you came to that faith is also very personal. It has little to do with logic, as there is no logical basis for such beliefs. And if your faith gets you through life, that's great.
But don't confuse that with science.
And recognize that it is a personal choice each of us makes, and each of us will deal with the consequence of our choice.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
|
JLB- I hear ya. And you, too, are welcomed to believe in ensoulment, divine ensoulment of the machine (ensoulment of the "meatjail"), also of Satan and his powers, and a so-called human stain (that needs to be forgiven) as result of the Fall (aka Original Sin), an eternal lifeafter, etc..
It is America, the land of the free, afterall. And if, because of your beliefs, you don't gang up with others of like-mindedness to try to legislate - to try to (a) persecute gays, (b) jail the Dr. Kevorkians, (c) limit stem cell research, (e) limit pro-choice people in their choices, (d) teach the bible in public school, etc. - all the better.
But make no mistake - there are legitimate grounds, there are legitimate reasons - as we head further on into the 21st century - for these culture wars.
.....
EDIT 1:50p Ha, Ed and I typing away at the same time hundreds of miles apart - how poignant to imagine, and how characteristic of the age. :)
.....
"And recognize that it is a personal choice each of us makes..." - Now if only we could get the Taliban and al Qaeda to come around to this attitude.
"...and each of us will deal with the consequence of our choice." -damn straight.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
|
Norton, Way to send! very nice!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1266290&msg=1270618#msg1270618
Love the use of "Yahweh God." I found ten instances. 'Bout time somebody besides me called out which "God" we are actually talking about nine times out of ten on these threads in America. Make no mistake, it is a habit. Either a bad habit (God) or a good habit (Jehovah or Yahweh). But it IS habit. -Glaring to those who have studied across theologies.
How many times did I mention it, I don't know, but I was sounding like a broken record. Tedious but necessary. Makes no sense to talk about "God" without talking about WHICH one.
17 is a unitless number. God is an indefinite word. Break the bad habit of "dangling deities" that Abrahamic religious people (e.g., Christians) and slippery "sophisticated" theologians love about you - don't fall into this trap, which is to say, their trap.
.....
EDIT Don't let em get away with it. Don't let astute sophisticated theologians (or religious "leadership" of any kind) frame the conversation THEIR way - by mixing together in the same conversation "God" of the Old Testament (Jehovah, the very personal punishing jealous God Jehovah) and "God" in some vague, abstract, far-out philosophical Einsteinian sense. It matters which "God" we're talking about (i.e, Diacrates). "The devil's in the details." Call em out on it.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
|
"I believe you are worth way more than that - created for a purpose, to love and be loved, and be a part of something that is not just a random ocurrence of chemicals coming together."
Yeah right.
Were the six million Jews gassed to death created for that divine purpose?
Were their babies thrown screaming onto Nazi bonfires created for a divine purpose?
Were the millions of children dying in the agony of cancer "created" for THAT "divine purpose"?
And on and on and on. The agony of suffering, poverty, and human misery.
Kiss my atheist ass.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
|
The Age of the Internet: Freeskites (fka atheists) Unleashed!
.....
200 years ago, either (a) the authorities or (b) the (well-meaning) townspeople would've had our heads on a pike. In many a village. And no newspaperman to report it, either. Yeah, times are changing, progress is afoot. -Reason to celebrate.
.....
On the other hand, Johann Huibers has now earned for himself a ticket to Jehovahland Major, i.e., Heaven:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1197468&msg=1271082#msg1271082
.....
The question bears repeating:
QT Is the right wing anti-science? ANS Yes.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 12:06am PT
|
Norton..it's not too late to have your confession heard and be molested....rj
|
|
JLB
Trad climber
Smiths, AL
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2010 - 11:26am PT
|
"Kiss my atheist ass." - finally, proof of evolution! this somewhat civil discussion evolved into an emotional, disrespectful, tirade.
Sorry, don't mean to be sarcastic - but Norton - think about it. You actually make a good point for me. Those things you mention are absolute atrocities, of epic proportions. I've read a lot about the holacaust. Absolute horrorible display of human actions. Hitler believed that the Jews and blacks were not as far advanced as the blue eyed blonde haired Germans. He thought they could speed up the evolutionary process by keeping the less developed out of the human gene pool. He thought they were less human and therefore expendable. That was a human created standard.
Think about it, there is right and wrong in this world. Everyone has an innate sense of this. But men create their own standards continually perverting what is right and wrong. Consider if we were building a house, my standard measure is 1 inch, yours is 1.25 inches, Ed's is 1.50, etc etc. Our house will end up being completely useless and feebly built. This is where our culture is, our house is a wreck. God didn't do that. We did. Yes, I believe people are created in a divine way. Then we go and pervert that way. It is men's choices and separate standards that lead to atrocities that you mention. And we are in agreement - there are horrible atrocities that happen, everyday.
Guys, again I said up front there is faith in what I believe. I said that early on. I do believe there is a double standard of proof that you guys impose - evolution is true because I can't dispove it. But God is not true because I can't prove Him. I said too that I think it is healthy to test what you believe, not only what someone else believes, but what you believe too. I think you should know exactly what you believe and exactly why you believe it. Ed said that evolution is the way the world works. I don't see anything in our time giving birth to anything that is different than its own kind. The only answer I see to that is that it takes too long to happen - if given enough time .....
Now, you guys may have a much better answer to why we don't see the physical process of evolution now. However, if time is the best answer we have, then you have stepped off into faith also - IF given enough time, we would see it. You guys do a great job testing what I believe. It hasn't shaken my belief, but you guys are engaging in the process - all except that whole "kiss my atheist ass" part. I challenge you to test yours too, by asking the simple, obvious questions. I do that, believe me. I have 3 children, they can ask the simplest but hardest questions. If you don't test what you believe, even a child can see through your answer.
Maybe I was naive to think there could be a civil, healthy, engaging discussion, without it getting all emotional. But, I think it is worth it to be slammed or told to kiss someone's ass, if it one day helps someone open their mind and test why you are an atheist. You may tell me to kiss your ass again, that's fine. I think that believing there is no God, is still "believing" in something, and most "believing" incorporates an element of faith, even if you don't want to admit it. You would have to obtain 100% knowledge available in the world to KNOW there was no God. Even as smart as you guys sound, I don't think you have 100% knowledge. Heck, I probably don't have 1%, but I do know why I believe what I do.
|
|
JLB
Trad climber
Smiths, AL
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2010 - 11:43am PT
|
Dr. F - digging in the ground and finding fossils - if you were to bring that fossil to court and say see - proof of evolution. I don't think it would stand up to the question - "Dr. F, how do you know that fossil gave birth to something that was different than what it is? or, came from something different than what it was?" Maybe you have a great, definitive answer. I don't know, all you've said is that finding fossils is proof.
The only fact is - there is a bone in the dirt. you see it as proof of evolution. I see it as evidence of a great catastophic flood that buried a lot of stuff at the same time.
I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure. I doubt you were there and know FOR SURE TOO.
I think fossils are some of the coolest things on the planet. The Bible does talk about how He did it, but you have to believe the Bible to accept it. It actually talks about it, and talks about there will be people who will mock it and WHY they will mock it - see II Peter Chapter 3 if you care to test it.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2010 - 11:52am PT
|
The only fact is - there is a bone in the dirt. you see it as proof of evolution. I see it as evidence of a great catastophic flood that buried a lot of stuff at the same time.
I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure. I doubt you were there and know FOR SURE TOO.
Wow. I'm sorry, but that's just really stupid... I just don't know what else to say.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!