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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 11, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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So what does the ASCA intend to do on this route with essentially no original bolts?
Interesting question. Even more reason to talk to the FA team.
I wonder what condition the route was in on the FFA, and how does the ASCA factor in these changes (if any).
BTW, is there a lot of fixed gear on P2? I remember just a pin or two in the arch.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2010 - 02:49am PT
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So what does the ASCA intend to do on this route with essentially no original bolts? Nothing at all until we get a solid consensus!
It can be tough on routes where pitons were key and may not be replaceable by nuts and cams. BUT, I think the spirit of the FA party is pretty clear from this quote:
After three pitches more or less straight up, there was Herbert belaying in slings just below an excellent ledge. He wasn't on the ledge because it lacked anchors.
That pretty much sums up the attitude of the FA party - and I think the attitude these days is different. So it will be an interesting continuing discussion...
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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I climbed the route about a zillion years ago with Brian Povolny (OK, perhaps around 1988?) and recall it being superb! I followed the first pitch, remember the climbing past the two bolts to be desperate. The second pitch I ended up aiding up a bit off the belay because the pro seemed really bad...right off the belay. If there are bolts there now that is fine with me! And higher up that pitch had some dicey knifeblades that if still there must be awful. The rest of the climb seemed fine. And yes, I also recall that anchor in the middle of hard and excellent climbing up higher that most certainly did not need to be there...
Hope this helps in some way...I'd love to climb it again!
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Jul 13, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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Just saw these over in the route beta section. Looks like a topo someone drew up from a recent ascent. Perhaps Pitu could chime in with details.
Really Pretty topos!
 Luke
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 24, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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Consensus Bump...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 25, 2010 - 12:04am PT
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So far, we have at least four different standards for evaluating hardware renovation on west face:
1. Adhere to the concept of the FA: An aid climb, with pitons, and one bolt. Maybe that original bolt would be replaced with a new 1/4 incher, to make it authentic. New teams would carry hammers and pins. For most teams, this would probably become an aid climb again, or some mix of free and aid.
2. Adhere to the concept of the route as left by the FFA: A free climb, with at least one bolt and an unknown number of fixed pins. That would mean replacing some quantity of the old fixed pins (as they were in 1979)with new pin bolts. Does anyone have a reliable topo of the 1979 FFA? Which pins where? (The topo I saw in 1982 had a lot of fixed pins.)
3. Remove the one bolt (since at least one team aid-climbed the route without it) to create a boltless Cap VI. This would be the most aggressive solution, returning the wall to an aid climb, with perhaps occasional free ascents (5.11R? or X?)
4. Retrofit the route to make it a cleaner, more reliable version of the free climb that most teams currently do. Probably replace some or most of the existing fixed hardware with newer, beefy versions.
Each of these standards or goals or sets of criteria conflicts with the others.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 25, 2010 - 02:17am PT
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I haven't done the climb, but by all accounts the rock on the route is fairly featured. Perhaps it would make sense for some reliable climbers to go up and have a good look at the key pitches, perhaps on rappel. The hope being to see if there is a free line that is 5.11 or so, that more or less follows the original route (minor variations acceptable), that is reasonably protected with decent belays, but that does not require more than the original bolt (if that), and needs few if any fixed pins.
It seems worth a try. If nothing else, it might define the possibilities a bit better. "Time spent in reconnaisance is never wasted" - military maxim.
You could even then sit down with Royal and TM, and ask what they think makes sense.
Does anyone actually do the route as an aid climb any more? Apart from pulling/hanging on a piece here or there? How about rappellers, e.g. in thunderstorms? Is that enough of a concern that some fixed belays might be appropriate, even if they weren't needed on the FA?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 31, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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So, let's continue to gather perspectives to see what this route may offer before inertia leads to the Plastic Expolding Inevitable...LOL
From Mountain #79 May/June 1981.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 17, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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The only pitch on the whole route that needs any help is the second pitch.
The rest of the route is just standard climbing ......
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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Oct 17, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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Hey, I didn't notice this thread till now.
A friend and I climbed this route in 2008. He's a mega-hardman, and had done it a zillion times, and retreated off it at least once. He never liked the anchor situation. They were sketch, sometimes not in the best place, and people left manky anchors all over the route, and to the sides of it, when retreating.
With these factors in mind, we made sure there was at least one good bolt at every anchor up to the last 5.11 pitch, and removed a bunch of the nasty rusty stopper and tat anchors left by bailers.
After that, you could belay in comfortable spots with at least one bomber bolt, and rap the route in complete safety(with two ropes, I think), without leaving a bunch of garbage behind.
After reading this, and talking to Eric Bissell just now, who did the route a month ago...it sounds like our bolts may have been chopped, possibly even the one we put at the pitch 7 belay, which did not have good gear to back up the 1/4 incher. There is a loose flake there that will fall off someday. Just cuz a cam will hang off the wall does not mean it will hold anything! I find it hard to believe that someone chopped the good bolt and left the bad bolt...and maybe they didn't.
Also, and I mentioned this on another thread once, most modern yosemite hardmen believe this route to be 11d/.12a if you skip the anchor (that SHOULD be removed!!!) at THE crux move.
Good luck Greg.
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Apr 25, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
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Anyone been up there recently? Current anchor situation?
Also any comments on route wetness... Guessing it might not be dry for a while...
Thanks!
Luke
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 25, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
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The anchor bolt at the end of original pitch 7 is the only original and by definition necessary bolt. While a couple of holes may have become needed to avoid blown placements, the rest are all convenience or chicken bolts. It's a shame. Some thought really needs to go into cleaning up and restoring this route before every indiscretion is immortalized in stainless steel, IMO.
dittos, steve. when wason and i ran up it in '87 the only bolt i can clearly recall clipping was that mank stinker 3/4 of the way up the 5.11b/c finger crack pitch. might have been a belay bolt or two on the first two pitches? fuzzy memory. but if new bolts are popping up, i say nuke 'em.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 25, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
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Thanks for the bump Bob.
As this is the accessible free route up El Cap, proper respect and consideration really need to go into it's maintenance.
A boltless Grade VI is a rare and wonderful thing. Royal and TM did their best on the FA and almost pulled it off. We owe them our best effort as a community to maintain that high standard moving forward. Convenience bolts really have no place on this proud climb and perhaps neither does a haulbag anymore.
Strong and competant parties doing the route in the near future should weigh in on keeping the route as pristine as possible.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 26, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
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Bump for further discussion...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 27, 2012 - 12:23am PT
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Here's an overly detailed topo / notes that I drew in 1999.
It shows the conditions that were probably in effect before Jake's cleanup.
Sorry it's a little wide, but it shows the details much better than pitu's
stylized topo.
You can see how in the past, people just added 1/4" bolts at belays when
they thought the old ones looked bad. For example, the 5 bolts at (8).
Nowadays we know to remove the old bolts instead of adding more and more holes.
It was good to read that Jake and his partner worked to clean this up.
I don't think a return to the exact fixed gear style of the first ascent is desirable,
unless people think there should be a return to nailing on this route.
It's a similar situation to the Salathe' Wall,
where the route was originally nailed,
and over time it has been semi-randomly adapted to people climbing with nuts and cams.
In its summer season this climb is subject to thunderstorms.
So I think it's natural to have rappel anchors from (8) back to the ground,
but I don't think there should be a 2-bolt belay at the end of every pitch above that.
It's a great route - get out and do it, Luke, if you haven't already.
[Edit to add:]
Steve is of course not advocating a return to nailing on this climb.
My point was just intended to say that if placing/removing pitons is ruled out (as most would agree should be),
for several of the fixed anchors you will want fixed pitons or bolts.
(Relatively few trees, flakes and fixed nut options at belays on this climb
in the "retreat zone" through p8).
For example: anchor at top of p1: it's a bolt. Pitons would also work,
if they could be maintained. Nuts can cams wouldn't be very good.
Since fixed pitons can't be easily maintained (unless people bring hammers),
(stainless steel) bolts are the standard for fixed anchors.
There likely exists a wide range of opinion on where fixed anchors (pro and belay) should or shouldn't exist on this climb.
So ASCA will likely never be in a position to do anything here;
we prefer to avoid controversy and there is plenty of non-controversial work to do.
As a result, it's up to folks like Jake and his partner to do the cleanup.
(And others to chop, if they feel so inclined).
Such is life in the jungle....
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 27, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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what exactly would we do here? try to work out the placement of each fixed pin on the ffa and replace each with a pin bolt? or bolt?
given the route's history as an aid route (i watched a team nailing it in the early eighties), it would be difficult to re-establish the "original" state of the route. whose memories would we trust? and why?
how about a best, reasonable guess at likely points of fixed pro for a period ffa? that alone would be a pretty moving target. but it's the 21st century, so bolts or pin bolts would seem better choices than pins.
steve's suggestion that this should be a candidate for an all bootless route is intriguing. but bolts are less horrific (for free routes) than once they were. fifty years on, most of us have come to think that the damage by pins is often worse (and less reparable) on a free route than the damage of a bolt. easy enough to yank a bolt, fill the hole, and blend it over. pin scars and flake fractures can be more permanent. different on aid routes, where measuring and finagling the right piece of removable iron is part of the challenge. but we're way past the point where we think of pins as greener than bolts.
do we make best possible ascent the model? it's obviously solo able, for someone willing to hang it out on insecure but comparatively moderate ground. does that mean we should chop all the metal?
difficult issue--
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Oct 22, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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Doug and I are doing it wall style. We have fixed and hauled to the top of 4. We will go back up when the weather clears. We have found new bolts/hangers. The ones at the top of the 1st pitch are stamped ASCA. Because of back cleaning I could not tell if the new hangers at the top of 3 are stamped ASCA. We are not carrying a bolt kit because there is no ASCA bolt replacement work to be done on this route. (Only 1 first ascent bolt) I checked with Greg and these bolts were not authorized by the ASCA. I don't chop anything, but I have been known to replace ASCA hangers with non-ASCA hangers:-)
Roger
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cruise
Big Wall climber
boone
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:43am PT
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I have climbed this route 3 times in the last 2 months and am responsible for the new anchors. only anchors were replaced and new slings were added around block at top of pitch 3. This took place during the week of Yosemite face lift. the anchors were super shitty many with 3-5 button head bolts that were real old. The route is awesome and quite the adventure. (only anchors were replaced).
-Cruz
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Oct 24, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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Don't get me wrong, I will love those bolted anchors:-) It is just when non first ascent bolts are replaced using ASCA hangers it places the ASCA right in the middle of the "bolt Wars" I have placed bolts at fixed pin anchors this season because these anchors had issues and needed to be bolted, but I did it using my own stuff. The ASCA survives on donations and much of that donated money is raised because of the strict standards the ASCA follows. It is pretty basic; "First ascent bolts only, nothing added nothing chopped." That said, thanks Cruz for your hard work. Carrying all the extra stuff it takes to pull, patch, and replace bolts up that approach would probably kill me.
Roger
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