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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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hahaha! Conflict of interest? naw.... I can smell crap just as good as the next guy, be it mine or the other guys.
You have the cool equipment and can give the charts and graphs that are pretty neat.
Glad you came on over!
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 11, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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Heh... Perhaps I'm a bit touchy about those sorts of things lately as I've had 3 of the manufacturers a bit grumpy with me so far this year. :-)
But yeah, my setup is pretty nice. Not without its flaws though... I still want to figure a (cheap) way to integrate a distance measurement with the force measurement as that would be much more meaningful. And lately I've been having sync problems with the video for some reason, which means I can't fold the display of the strain gage indicator into the video of the test. But the charts from the datalogger are sweet. :-)
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Aug 11, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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"Heh... Perhaps I'm a bit touchy about those sorts of things lately as I've had 3 of the manufacturers a bit grumpy with me so far this year. :-) "
I'm pretty sure we don't really give a sh#t what the manufacturers think. I know, personally, I'd just like to know the reality, when it comes to gear. Not the warm fuzzies they try to give me with marketing.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Aug 11, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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I just got a pair of Petzl adjustable daisy... haven't used it yet.... but it looks pretty good to go!! LOL
Sorry.. not actually input to the stated question...
next
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Aug 11, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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Try an adjustable fifi instead?
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 11, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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I have a spare Fish and a spare Yates I could donate to testing. Tell me where to send it and I'll pop them in the mail... This would be a good thing to do.
I mentioned it the other day on another site that I had gone back to using standard daises ...
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 11, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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Cool. The address is 47 Prospect Ave, Norristown, PA 19403.
Just include a note saying how you'd like them tested/fixtured. IIRC the puller has 24" of stroke on the cylinder, so keep that in mind. If you'd rather I drop a bunch of steel to it then no worries on the distance.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 11, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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I'll get them in the post before the end of the week...
I'll leave up how they are tested to the "virtual fireplace." I really have no idea.
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Aug 11, 2009 - 06:13pm PT
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"Xtrmcat,
Seriously? You can't think of any advantages of having a daisy that has a working load of 2000 lbs vs 300 lbs? "
Piquaclimber, no I really see no reason whatsoever to need a daisy that will need to hold that much more weight than me, rack, ropes and drag. Any more than that would hopefully never get used, and if the daisy were stonger, would just strip out the gear I'm on and kidneys and spleen, and spine, etc. It is a daisy, I never found a need to use it for anything else like my anchor, supporting extra like the piggy, and on and on.
Am I missing something? Russ kind of answered it anyhow, just because Met rated it for three hundred pounds, I have loaded mine well over that thousands of times. I weighed in a dainty 270 for the last couple years, and never even noticed increased wear on the gear.
Bob
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roy
Social climber
New Zealand -> Santa Barbara
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Aug 11, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
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Hi,
I've used both the Metolius and the Yates. The Metolius is easier to extend while clipping, but the Yates looks beefier. At least that's what I though until I fell on one. My top piece blew as I was leaning down to clip the rope through the piece I was standing on. The lower piece was at knee level and I had maybe 6" of slack in the daisy. Pilot error, and the result ...
Yes, I still have my spleen. I didn't even feel it blow and didn't realize what had happened until I looked up. The aider was 15' above me and no longer connected to either me or the rope. Basically the teeth ripped through the webbing.
I'm intrigued by Kate's system but then I'm a sucker for new gear.
Cheers, Roy
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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Looking for feedback....
I've sent out tons of stuff with the standard "let me know that works" when you are done request. I get like zero feedback.
so: here is the question again:
FISH/Yates style adjustable daisy chain. Some have 1" ClimbSpec webbing in them, and some have regular flat Aider style webbing in them. Which one works better, lasts longer, gets to be more fuzzy, sketch, whatever....
Anyone tried both types of webbing and can give a good account of the performance?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Aug 11, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
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Russ,
Mine originally came with the climb spec stuff (smooth tubular), which I gave good props for some time back. At the time you corrected me and said I must be wrong, you only used the thick flat stuff, and that I must be a kook.
Anyway...
My main feedback on the Fish adjustables is as follows (I've posted this all before is some form...):
1. The biner dogbone should be as short as you can get it, your are about 1-1.5" longer than Yates. There is no need to make the pocket any bigger than what is needed to rotate a locking biner though the hole. Yates also "rolls" the webbing at the biner point, which makes no difference in my experience, but looks more "professional". Yates even went from 4 tacks to 3 tacks sometime in the last few years and shortened theirs another fraction of an inch.
2. Climb spec is easier to pull through, and lasts a little longer in my experience (using one Yates and one Fish side by side). However the climb spec stuff gets sucked into the buckle and FUBAR'd easier and more often than the thick flat, which is maddening. Overall thick flat is my preferred option.
3. Your daisies are a proper length, even recent Yates ones are a bit short (and I'm only 5'9").
4. At least the girth hitch I got on my pair was massive and overkill. A girth hitch barely big enough to pass the buckle through is key in my opinion (about 3"). With the small dogbone and a small girthing loop it is pretty easy to go without a fifi. Stock Fish girth loops force the use of a fifi for second and top stepping for me on anything steep. I hate fifi's and keeping them out of my system is my favorite thing about using adjustable daisies.
5. Many folks are less color blind/indifferent than you are. I am red/blue obsessed to help tame the cluster. You could get a special niche by being more aware of this, and selling contrasting pairs, and not just whatever is at your finger tips when the order comes in. When I ordered mine I tried to be clear about getting one red, one blue plus a set of replacement webbing. I got two red ones (climb spec), and got two replacement straps that were blue (thick flat). Close, but no cigar. I cut one red strap off and put on one of the blue straps. Stoners lost my blue one and replaced it with a Yates which is how I have side by side comparisons. Those buckles finally wore out (after probably 4-5 more webbing replacements), and I replaced them both with Yates from the Mountain Shop so I could be sure to get contrasting colors (though they did not have red, bummer).
My $0.02.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 11, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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I use the metolius aiders, cause I hate wasting time fidgeting with getting my foot in the loop in the wind,(It's always windy up there). But I really prefer the Yates Adj. daisy's. Both take a little practice so you don't waste energy lengthening either one and they both wear out relatively quick, but compared to the ol' shcool' aiders and daisy chains, Furgetabout it.
And the Pass from Metolius is brilliant. The fact that more climbers aren't using them( free climbing) is a confounded mystery.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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hahaha! a kook huh? naw..... It could have happened.
1. The biner dogbone should be as short as you can get it, your are about 1-1.5" longer than Yates. There is no need to make the pocket any bigger than what is needed to rotate a locking biner though the hole. Yates also "rolls" the webbing at the biner point, which makes no difference in my experience, but looks more "professional". Yates even went from 4 tacks to 3 tacks sometime in the last few years and shortened theirs another fraction of an inch.
I put like 7 or 8 tacks in there, figuring it takes a lot of wear and tear from twisting and handling. I suppose it could be made shorter with less tacks, but I sorta like having a buttload of tacks to look at to convince myself I'm safer than I actually am.
2. Climb spec is easier to pull through, and lasts a little longer in my experience (using one Yates and one Fish side by side). However the climb spec stuff gets sucked into the buckle and FUBAR'd easier and more often than the thick flat, which is maddening. Overall thick flat is my preferred option.
That is what happened to me too.... for the last few years we have only used the flat style of webbing (unless we were out or some other odd reason). Both styles seem to do quite well, but the tube webbing can get hooked on the spring and really become a mess.
3. Your daisies are a proper length, even recent Yates ones are a bit short (and I'm only 5'9").
I like them long too... same with our Super Daisy. Real long.
4. At least the girth hitch I got on my pair was massive and overkill. A girth hitch barely big enough to pass the buckle through is key in my opinion (about 3"). With the small dogbone and a small girthing loop it is pretty easy to go without a fifi. Stock Fish girth loops force the use of a fifi for second and top stepping for me on anything steep. I hate fifi's and keeping them out of my system is my favorite thing about using adjustable daisies.
We are doing an 8" loop these days, down from 10" a while back. We lob like 8 tacks into the girthing bond. Are you girthing it to your belay loop or around your leg loops and harness at the waist? With my caveman set up (Swami and leg loops) the sizing was just right.... that and I use a close-clip biner on my waist.
This would be a good one to hear about.. like how you modern harness guys set it up and what length girth loop you might think is best.
5. Many folks are less color blind/indifferent than you are. I am red/blue obsessed to help tame the cluster. You could get a special niche by being more aware of this, and selling contrasting pairs, and not just whatever is at your finger tips when the order comes in. When I ordered mine I tried to be clear about getting one red, one blue plus a set of replacement webbing. I got two red ones (climb spec), and got two replacement straps that were blue (thick flat). Close, but no cigar. I cut one red strap off and put on one of the blue straps. Stoners lost my blue one and replaced it with a Yates which is how I have side by side comparisons. Those buckles finally wore out (after probably 4-5 more webbing replacements), and I replaced them both with Yates from the Mountain Shop so I could be sure to get contrasting colors (though they did not have red, bummer).
Sadly, webbing colors come and go. When I order webbing it is by the pallet, and only do so a few times a year. So when the Blue is gone, it is gone.... sometimes for a while, as in months.
As a for instance: I have blue right now in flat and tube.... but red only in tube.... So a nice blue one could be made (we use tubular for the buckle end and flat for the body) but the red one would have to be some jacked up Miami Vice teal and red or something...
Email me your address and I'll send you stuff to "test" for all that great info above.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:17pm PT
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Per the Master Fish " I am red/blue obsessed to help tame the cluster". This little detail is imperative for reducing the cluster F*&%^. Red is Right ....is always the same no matter how much your spinning around up their.....
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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I'm in agreement to. I think having Red is Right, blue Left, is the way. Cuts thru the confusion, and makes me feel happy.
Same reason i have redjumar and blue jumar and red speed stirrup and blue speed stirrup.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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I used to like Metolius because I was stupid.
See, the Metolius uses a D-ring rig which is impossible to loosen under tension, and is also incredibly difficult to use on traversing pitches. But the D-ring doesn't slip, even when you've used the daisy for way longer than you ever should, and it gets old and ratty and abraded and weak, but still doesn't slip. And because you're a cheap self-unemployed bastard, you don't replace it, then you take a short fall on the thing and it breaks, and because you're stupid and blow it, you fall, hit a ledge and break your leg.
Metolius has since made their adjustable daisies even weaker, and sells them with the caveat to back them up using a proper full strength traditional daisy, which is probably a good idea if your adjustable daisy is only marginally stronger than a strand of wet spaghetti.
Or you could buy a proper adjustable daisy from Fish or Yates, both of which are virtually identical, made with much beefier and stronger nylon, and have a burly Ancra buckle that you can release one-handed under load. [If you cannot release it one-handed or under load, then you are a pussy] John's adjustables used to be too short, but he has since remedied that design flaw.
John Yates tells me you can in theory get 70 pitches out of a pair of his daisies before they begin to slip and get weak, and you should retire them. [I was stupid, and didn't do this with my Metolius, and should have retired them long ago. Nylon fails when it gets old and ratty - I was just luckier than Todd Skinner]
In practice, I get two El Cap walls out of my Yates before I replace them. This is because I do a lot of big wall camping, and crawl around on my bivi belays a lot.
And here is your Dr. Piton Big Wall Tip of the Day:
Get yourself a Third Arm. Put a third adjustable daisy on your harness, and use it when you are leading hard aid and get scared [you will understand what I mean when you get into the situation, and are glad you have a Third Arm]. It's also extra redundancy for crawling around on belays if you are not tied into the end of a rope, which I sometimes do. You don't want to blow it and do a Factor 2 onto a single adjustable daisy, know what ah mean, Vern?
So don't do as I do, do as I say: retire your adjustable daisies frequently!
P.S. "Red is right" is essential in certain systems, like Russian Aiders where you can't tell which stirrup goes on which leg, cuz they look almost the same. Adjustable daisies go left to right constantly, and colour here is irrelevant [except that they be two different colours]
P.P.S. Russ - you've got my ledge for revamping, right? If you want an answer to your question above, please include one of each daisy, and I'll give 'em a go in September and let you know, eh?
P.P.S. Here is Russ' chief [only] design flaw, and for this reason I only use Fish for my third arm, I have to use Yates for my primary pair:
"I put like 7 or 8 tacks in there, figuring it takes a lot of wear and tear from twisting and handling. I suppose it could be made shorter with less tacks, but I sorta like having a buttload of tacks to look at to convince myself I'm safer than I actually am."
No good, Russ. You gotta shorten up the stitching, man! I refuse to climb El Cap, and will only pull myself up using adjustable daisies with a 2:1 mechanical advantage less the friction through the buckle. But I can't pull myself all the way up with your adjustable daisies because there's too much bloody stitching on the mobius-girth hitch loop thingy.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Aug 11, 2009 - 11:54pm PT
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"We are doing an 8" loop these days, down from 10" a while back. We lob like 8 tacks into the girthing bond. Are you girthing it to your belay loop or around your leg loops and harness at the waist? With my caveman set up (Swami and leg loops) the sizing was just right.... that and I use a close-clip biner on my waist.
"This would be a good one to hear about.. like how you modern harness guys set it up and what length girth loop you might think is best. "
I girth mine around my waist/leg loops, same place I tie into the rope at, it's all about getting things short enough to avoid the fifi. I'm about the last person you want to ask about "modern setups", I'm just a fatso who gets out onto real rock about twice a year.
No need to send me stuff, I have too much already. I've got a Fish econobag, aid trees, wall bags, beef bags, two hooks (dropped my third, favorite 2.5" one), a couple Fish ledges, gear sling (needs less slipper padding covering), etc. Worse yet, I have a sewing machine (well, 3 actually), so I have a load of crap I've tried sewing that I'll probably never wear out at the rate I "climb".
Also, you gotta get some of those shirts like the Wall Psyche one reprinted... My two Fish shirts are getting a bit worse for wear, and the "Naked" one has worn out its welcome at my work...
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Aug 12, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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Yates the one with the metal ring on the pull end? I run that one and a fish side by side, girthed to my belay loops. For me both also require a fifi when in the 2nd step, but it is an easy fifi as my waist is right there. Both have self released in my clusterf*#kness system giving me a 2” heart attack. I can’t remember what caused it, but it is either a biner, or maybe the other daisy being weighted directly about the buckle, pressing it down and paying out some slack. Thump, thump, thump, thump, goes the heart… I am thinking about checking out Kate’s ushba system.
The Yates gets really fuzzy, the fish not so much so. No slippage from either yet.
Prod.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Aug 12, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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I third the comments about lengths of Fish loops.
Top buckle hangs 2" lower than Yates, and girth loop rises about 3" higher. 5" less reach, or an extra move to fifi higher, repeat umpteen times- not good.
Also the top of the end loops catch on stuff- PITA.
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