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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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My names Pasha. I poke sticks at things to see what bites?
So what was reason behind drilling those pockets on that face?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Ron, et al.-
I didn't know this thread was an offshoot of the other thread when I made my first response. After I went and read that thread, I was sorta left with the same feeling you get when you step in dogsh#t. There's a lot of vitriol and grandstanding going on. Nonetheless, I like to think of myself as fairly open minded and so I'll stick around for the discussion here.
It sounds like everyone agrees that minimizing impact is a reasonable goal. With this as a given, lets move on to some examples.
Aid climbing, particularly nailing, has a lot of impact over time. Ron, I gather that, when aiding, you expect people to nail only when absolutely necessary, and then with an eye to making scars that will someday allow clean placements. I think this is an admirable and reasonable standard. It allows for the maximum number of ascents to be made with the least impact possible to the stone, and therefore a higher quality of experience for all who climb it. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth here, and if I am, let me know.
With that aid climbing ethic in mind I find it strange that you would argue that drilling pockets on the FA of a free route is going to have less impact on the rock over time than not drilling them. I have not seen the route in question. Are there edges so friable that with a few repeats the route will be ruined? Would the route have been free-climbable without drilling (at a higher grade)? It seems like drilling here could be taking something away from future climbers of the route, namely the possibility of meeting the rock on its terms. I am truly interested in the response to these questions. I'm trying to figure out what the special circumstances are that would convince you that drilling was a good idea for that route.
Maybe it comes down to what someone is trying to do with their FAs. Are you trying to use the rock as a medium with which to "make a climb" that others will get maximum utility out of or are you trying to get up the rock on its terms with the goal of topping out with as little evidence of your being there as possible? Either approach has some validity as well as some benefits and some drawbacks. But in the long run, both will have a negative effect on the rock.
I'm not one to tell someone else how to climb (although I reserve the right to make all the jokes I want to about penalty slack), and I certainly don't have the climbing CV that a lot of the folks here do. I've got an ethic that I like. It works for me. I personally can't see myself in a situation where drilling a handhold would make a lot of sense to me. You clearly feel otherwise, and I want to understand why. Who knows, I might learn something. I think a lot of the people on this thread and the other one have a similar goal, and different interpretation of how to get there.
--->bob (hayes, if you really have to know)
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Bob,
since I posted the pics on the other thread, I feel compelled to answer a couple things. First, it was in the 80's, a long time gone. Second, I only posted these because PR accused some dude of being a rock rapist. I hate it when folks who live in glass houses throw rocks and bitch, kind of reminds me of politics in the USA.
The route in question would have in all probability gone and stayed without drilled pockets at a reasonable grade. Note that I did not say PR drilled them, let him tell you about that but I do remember what he told me 20 years ago.
My motivation for posting the pictures was to get at the truth. I refrained from doing so for about 2 years now. Ron knows the truth, let him tell you. I just found it hard to swallow that a clean climber thought drilling holds was ok as a creative extension of climbing...I obviously do not feel the same way.
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WBraun
climber
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I have seen and witnessed this phenomena "DRILLED POCKETS" being engineered first hand by another person. I watched as this person actually drill with a power drill a finger pocket where there was none. This was here in Yosemite.
Thus it happens/happened ......
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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That pocket on The Athiest sure seemed unnatural. Is that what you speak of?
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WBraun
climber
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The Athiest? Where is that?
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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I think it's in the guidebook as the ChurchBowl area. Not real clear, I just got dragged along for the ride. We walked thru the village towards the hotel and headed up into the woods a bit, rather obscure beta,,,
Steep liebacks down low to a shutdown (at least for me) move pulling out of the steeps onto a thin steep (vert) slab, and the slab doesn't really let up....
WARNING: ACTUAL CLIMBING DISCUSSION, QUICK, INSULT SOMEBODY!!!
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WBraun
climber
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No not there. It's not important where or who did, but to understand why. Isn't this the thread topic?
Why? we are awaiting the explaining from Piton. Both these "Drilled Pockets" were on free routes. Me don't understand why (Pitons version), although at the same time I do understand why (Speculative version).
Funny isn’t it, how everyone always says I'm not one to tell someone else how to climb, but we’re always doing it in some manner or other whether directly or indirectly.
There seems to be no escaping this fact.
Even remaining silent or neutral is still an action that effects a reaction.
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Swan Slabs?
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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does the Aid route on swan slab have a drilled pocket? or are those pin scars? Can't remember.
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hobo
climber
PDX
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The nose?
The swan slab aid route has drilled pockets for sure. Maybe they were for hooks though, and maybe werner didnt watch those holes get drilled.
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hobo
climber
PDX
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Werner, hows the weather been there? Where is the snow at?
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WBraun
climber
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Just so you may satisfy your curiosity at "Knobby Wall" Lower Merced canyon just before the "Cookie"
Hobo, felt like 80 degrees at Arch rock climbing today. I don't see any snow except high on the rim and certain North Facing places.
Also, somebody is soloing "Shortest Straw" on the Captain
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 10:45am PT
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Bob Hayes,
my compliments on a well thought post.
Yesterday it was 71 in Zion and I climbed my ass off, asleep by 9:30.
Today looks even better, but I'll try to make some time tonight to respond in detail.
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hobo
climber
PDX
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Ooooh, boy that sounds nice. Do we know whos on shortest straw? Piton Ron, i look forward to your answer.
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Mr. Piton Ron,
burp (i.e. Mike (Hansen)) here ...
I appreciate the clarification and reasoning. Having an understanding of why you would have allegedly drilled the pockets mentioned earlier would allow everyone to rationally discuss the topic thrown out, opinions nothwithstanding. Otherwise, assumptions would be made and this thread would denigrate into another flame war (may still at that?).
My thoughts ...
I won’t opine on aid, since I don’t do a whole lot of it and I haven’t had to place very many pins. As a point of reference, I personally will never drill, chip, nor comfort”ize” holds.
Interesting idea on route viability for free routes. Made even more thought provoking considering sandstone is your primary medium of choice. I look at Wall Street outside of Moab … comparing routes there today to the way they were 15 years ago, there are routes that have changed considerably over the years (face and slab routes). I would imagine that after another 50 – 100 years some of those routes may not even exist anymore. So, drilling holds to keep the routes viable long-term is an interesting idea. That begs the question, however, whether the routes need to still be there or not. Not every piece of rock needs to be climbed (cliché warning). Many quality routes will never need to be altered to be climbable in the future. Furthermore, when I started climbing in the ‘80s I often looked past certain potential FA, since I knew the route wouldn’t be there anymore in several years in the same form and would only end up being some obscure route not worth doing. Drilling and chipping wouldn’t really preserve the same route. It would create a new one that may not be worth altering the rock permanently for. Personally, I can jump onto endless “created” routes in the gym.
I’m not sure whether the route viability reasoning coincides with the boulder you allegedly drilled in ZNP. Was that for viability reasons? Practice, or just to create something that wasn’t there (a boulder problem with a couple of moves)? Other? Any regrets?
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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ahhh... drilled pockets... how fun.
my experience with them is that once the madness starts it's the rock that suffers. First let me say I'm not defending drilling of pockets in any way - I'd neither advocate or do such a deed myself.
There's a little toprope problem on Moonstone Beach called Assembly Line. It's called that because a blank section of rock has a pocket in the middle that was chiseled. I know who drilled it. Others came along and filled it with Bondo. They also filled a non-drilled pocket with the same not knowing any better. The person who drilled the original pocket returned and removed the Bondo from both pockets. Now we have two drilled pockets The folks that attacked it with Bondo returned with Vaseline and filled them both. It was an ugly grease spot on the rock. I went there with a damn blow torch and vaporized and otherwise removed the Vaseline. That was fifteen years ago. The pockets remain and folks climb the route. I'm glad the controversy is over. The rock more than anything suffered.
Here in Arizona there's a variety of places with drilled pockets. The Pit is one and Jacks Canyon is the other. What's sorta sad about the chiseled and drilled stuff at Jacks is the attitude was if you couldn't get the route on your third try pull out the chisel - this happened on 5.10's for crying out loud. Still, it happened and the good news is everyone let it go - the rock didn't suffer more.
I'd clobber someone if they pulled out a chisel in "my" area - Winslow Wall. But I could pretty much care less what others do elsewhere. I find it odd that everyone gets their britches all bunched up about pockets drilled on purpose yet they will climb pin scars all damn day long. Hell, as far as I'm conderned no rock formation is more drilled and chiseled than El Cap.
Whatever... that's my two cents and yeah, ya'll deserve a full refund.
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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nature wrote: "that's my two cents and yeah, ya'll deserve a full refund."
LOL, love it!
Enjoy!
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WBraun
climber
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nature
How does rock suffer? I threw a rock and it skimmed the water and then sank. The rock drowned and suffered?
:-)
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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While critiquing our scientific writing abilities, one of my geo profs once said “Rocks do not suffer from high-grade metamorphism – they enjoy it!”
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