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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 9, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
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There was a party of two on Prodigal Sun this morning when somebody fell from the trail above.
I suppose it is understandable that the climbers also then decided to come down.
The rangers are being very closed lipped about it and I got tooled trying to go climbing. Although a mile from the incident site and in no way interfering, they wouldn't let me go to my route for near two hours, and I only had a four hour shade window.
While waiting for a "pass" I wandered up to Big Bend. The ranger there hadn't even spotted the party on Prodigal, so I suggested she warn them about the helicopter inbound.
The investigation is still being conducted and the trail closed when I left at 1:30.
I'm not sure of the statistics, reputedly the Emerald Pools Falls area has had more fatalities (as the approach is much shorter), but this is hardly the first non-technical climber to fall from the Landing.
Constructed eight decades ago when there were less litigious concerns and the parks were still being "tamed", this trail is one of the best via ferratas in the country.
99.9% of the thousands that climb it yearly do so safely, but there IS risk, and it often goes insufficiently recognized.
And then there is the graffiti.
The summit is the most vandalized spot in Zion.
It has reached a kind of critical mass where those who would normally never carve their names do so because "everybody else did"...
Chief ranger Passek told me five years ago that the boy scout that biffed down the South Buttress was looking for a blank spot left to carve on!
Its absurd!
And lets not even talk about what I've seen up there in winter conditions, crazy lack of good judgement without a thought in the world about what would happen "if"...
As I've said before, as much as I like my freedom, the time has come for more regulation in Zion, and non-technical climbing warrants it as much as any, but what to do?
If I were King Of Zion I think I would try the following;
Everybody registers and pays a fee.
Each child must be accompanied by an adult (three kids means THREE adults).
Groups set off from (a new gate with signs at) Scout's Lookout with an assigned escort.
The escorts are sort of trustees, locals with a vested interest, volunteers, and also climbers earning credits towards their own climbing fees (yet another story).
It is the declared function of the escort to see that there is no further vandalism. The group has to stay together. Nobody can "go pee".
(You either pee first, wet your pants or take a citation as a result of the escort's report.)
While the escort's function is to guard the resource, I suspect that it would result in far fewer mishaps merely as a side benefit and thus the escort could offer the benefit of a "guide" without assuming the liability.
Not much fun huh?
Welcome to our timid new world.
Got any better ideas?
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drewsky
climber
Seattle
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I'm not completely clear on the legalese associated with this type of situation, but it's my understanding that the more complexity one adds to these situations (i.e., the NPS instituting an escort system) the more complicated the liability situation becomes for the person(s) involved.
From the standpoint of better preventing further casualty, your idea has some credence, although it also adds higher numbers of people on the trail; in some instances this would likely increase the likelihood of an incident.
While I can't remember exactly what kind of signage is present at the Angel's Landing trailhead, my guess is that warning people via said signage is probably as far as any public or private entity would be willing to go as far as their liability is concerned. The signage implies tacit and/or explicit acceptance of the risk involved in proceeding beyond a certain point. Beyond that, a person would have to prove some sort of negligence on the part of the NPS. That might not be hard to do if a chain anchor broke or something of that sort, but it would be a lot easier if they could point a finger at an 'escort' and claim some sort of breach of conduct on his/her part.
I know that there are instances where people have won lawsuits because of an 'attractive nuisance' allowance; i.e., an easily accessible and unsigned swimming pool in someone's back yard in which another person drowns. I seriously doubt that this case (where there is both obvious potential danger involved and multiple warnings about the nature of the danger) warrants that sort of application, although I am by no means a lawyer.
I know it seems callous, but I think liability and litigation concerns sometimes limit our ability to involve ourselves in numerous situations, be it performing CPR when legally bound to do so (as in a service job setting) or creating infrastructure that might expose individuals to heightened personal liability (as in the case of your idea). There is no perfect answer, because life isn't safe. By slowly convincing ourselves (as a society) that life SHOULD be safe, we create the incredible and oft times ridiculous environment for finger pointing that is so familiar to us. Would that it were different, but alas it is so.
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10b4me
Gym climber
Happy Boulders
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The summit is the most vandalized spot in Zion.
well, that sucks.
maybe some of those that got the chop were also guilty of this vandalism.
natural selection?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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drewsky,
perhaps I didn't state clearly.
The "stated" function of the escort is to see that the tourists don't damage the rock.
Damaging themselves would be their own business.
I don't get how you think this would INCREASE numbers. A fee and added hassle would likely do the opposite.
The park is like an outdoor museum. If visitors kept vandalizing one exhibit wouldn't a curator be right to take some measure of vigilance?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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When my bf and his parents saw the boyscout seconds before his death 5 years ago, he had gone to fetch his camera so that he could return to the chains and take a picture.
Talking about karma when a little kid dies is pretty cruel.
As for wear and tear on the park, clearly each of us can only tread there just a little, say a couple of weeks, to get our taxpayers share without overdoing our own personal impact. Ron, your impact turn got used up a long time ago. Sorry.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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I don't tread. I float.
The boy scout went down the S butt, nowhere near the chains.
Tell me more.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sad about the graffiti up there. It should be cleaned up so that people don't get the impression that it is accepted.
When we hiked it with the kids some years back, I tied our youngest to me with a 20' rope, so I didn't have to worry about him plunging off.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Make everyone walk in from the entrance.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I just ask J, and he said he was "at the very end" of the trail when he saw him last and from where they heard that the fall occurred. I haven't hiked it, so must have been under the (I guess?) mistaken impression that the end was the chains.
He left, met up with his folks (who skipped the more exposed hiking and heard the camera request), and headed down the trail. SAR/rangers passed them before they got all the way down the trail.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
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Your description is ambiguous, Melissa.
The "end of the chains" is near the summit at the west end.
The top of the S butt is about 120m or more to the SE and involves down scrambling.
The news (KSL) just said it was a California woman and simultaneously panned up and down Prodigal Sun saying she fell 1,000'.
But they then went on to assert that "Angel's Landing is the highest point in the park at 1500'".
WTF??!!
1500'?
WTF happened to Horse Ranch Mt.?
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Ron if you want to be King of Zion all one needs to do is sit on the Great White Throne. I do that everyday and afterwards I feel like a king.
As for accident I heard and read that it was a woman from California:
http://www.montereyherald.com/national/ci_13026967?nclick_check=1
As for more rules - I disagree. How about some education? I can not remember the signage as it has been 20 years since I hiked the trail but perhaps something to the affect of "People die here do not continue unless you are prepared to die"
BTW every time there is a death on the cables route there is similar discussion. I say let people hike and take their chances.
As for charging, no problem there but what are charges for?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
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No Scared, it was a California woman.
There ARE warning signs, but then if they get too dramatic the family's attorney says, "THERE! You KNEW it was too dangerous."
Its a weird world. I liked the crosses on the road in the Alps when I was a kid. Man you sure slowed down when there was a whole row of them.
Are they still there?
I've heard europeans are becoming like us; always have to blame things on somebody (else).
You see thats why I say guard the rock.
If it just so happens that there are less accidents as a result is that bad.
And if there IS an accident the escort was there only to oversee the resource conservation, not as a guide.
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Indianclimber
Trad climber
Lost Wages
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They could at least post a ranger at the beginning of the chains section and warn people of the pending danger and massive fine for graffiti
They had a ranger posted at the top of Glacier point when i was up there last month
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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Not cheap, and likely not highly effective either PLUS the highest traffic is at the hottest time of the day in June thru September.
Hey, I didn't say these gumbies were smart.
(In this case however the party must have started early as it was on the shuttle radio before 9:00 and the news had to be first run down the trail.
I spoke to another hiker coming down who had seen family members with wide eyes and highly agitated hurriedly descending.)
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Indianclimber
Trad climber
Lost Wages
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Could be a combo of rangers ,park volunteers like they do for campground hosts,maybe have them sign a waiver at the base of the chains
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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One other thing I forgot to mention.
People would move in groups rather than a piddling stream. The latter results in people choosing the most absurd places to pass and, lacking any experience in route courtesy, they just blunder ahead climbing around and even over people rather than back up 10 meters to a much safer passing location.
People in groups could wait in those few places where they could reasonably effect a group crossing since the escorts would know where to stop.
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Indianclimber
Trad climber
Lost Wages
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Ron,that is the problem,last time I was up there I had 2 twelve year olds pushing past me on a 2 foot path
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hhhhhhhhh
climber
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I never thought I would see the day when Ron wanted more government regulation of climbing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2009 - 10:56pm PT
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"Want" is a bit strong.
Its a compromise.
I don't WANT to see the place screwed up.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise....
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Aye, Dude, WE know you love the place, & have been instrumental in its preservation.
I'll never diss ya for that, having been there.
Zion has magic. It NEEDS savin', BAD.
I'm thinkin', while staying open to suggestion.
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