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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop is DEAD, long live JT
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Aug 16, 2005 - 03:32am PT
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To paraphrase Charlie Porter:
"the kid wants a rope bucket, I'll build the kid a rope bucket".
Of course the real quote was from Porter to Kauk I believe up at Sentinel Falls before the first winter ascent???.... Kauk was way young and not too experienced, and Porter was of course bad ass.... anyway Kauk is cold, and is seeing if he can get some heat.... Porter says, "the Kid wants a fire, I'll build the kid a fire...".
Say Werner, is this how it went down...???
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Aug 16, 2005 - 10:14am PT
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hmmm...
"Rope Bucket" (tm) was a trademark of A5 Adventures, Inc.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
right behind you
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Aug 16, 2005 - 10:38am PT
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I was going to say that, but I knew you'd be along soon...
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macgyver
Social climber
Oregon, but now in Europe
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Aug 16, 2005 - 11:30am PT
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Tricky indeed.
I have an orignal A5 Rope Bucket and can see the similarities but will definately try a fish bag at some point for a full comparison.
From the blurb it seems to address a few problems with the rope bucket:
1) No stiff collar to keep bag open
2) Single strap less flexible than the "dual" adjustable strap method
How long do trademarks last by the way?
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Aug 16, 2005 - 11:34am PT
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AnkerGear(A5 Trademark holder?) still makes an A5 style rope bucket. I bought two when they were on sale last year.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop is DEAD, long live JT
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Aug 16, 2005 - 11:42am PT
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Wait, what you are telling me that the six other companies (that I know of) making rope buckets are making rope buckets??? Even the ones that folded???? Unreal!!! And they are all TM'd too!!!! The horror!!!!
Sadly, they are or were all flawed. The FISH model improves on their scant and flaccid design.
So Deuce, when did you invent the wheel? You really should get a hobby or something. Maybe Pika is hiring??
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Aug 16, 2005 - 11:46am PT
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Just curious. Regarding the one I posted above, what do you think is flawed? I haven't used it much so I can't claim to know it well. Now's the chance to sell us on the improved Fish model. I'm assuming the Fish model has a better price. What else?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop is DEAD, long live JT
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Aug 16, 2005 - 12:01pm PT
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Dave writes: Regarding the one I posted above, what do you think is flawed?
General flaws out there:
Body fabric is not stiff enough. Bag does not hold shape, which makes it harder to stuff and use. We used a VCN backed fabric which is pretty stiff.
Rim does not stay open. Does not have any method to keep the bag wide open, and when it is open the weight of the rope will close it during feeding. Our rim is super stiffy 2" webbing, and the rope runs on this instead of on the thin material of the gusset.
No long adjusters. Some have just one or maybe two clip loops. Others had two sorta long ones, but in the wrong place. Ours has two long ones in the right place, and when adjusted, these force the bag to stay open.
Zipper takes too much wear. Mostly from rubbing on the wall duing use. The bags tend to swing and rub going side to side wearing out the zipper on some. We have a big bumper down there.
Too Small. Ropes are longer now. Ours is larger.
Carry system needs work. Either nonexistant, or based on buckles and widgets. Ours is using existing straps, that dont clip to any additional hardware for the purpose.
No haul loops. Ours has real and strong hauling loops.
Ummmm... probably more, but I'm still on my first cup of coffee.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Aug 16, 2005 - 12:12pm PT
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I have an original A5 rope bucket and it rarely gets used for all of the reasons already mentioned. My prefered bucket has been the model Yates makes for rescue work, but they are a little heavy and cost a bunch. Ironically, I've been using Fish's large wall bags as my primary rope buckets for a couple of years. Russ, those things are perfect for rope buckets! Light weight, bomber material and stitched loop to hang from the anchor. I see your new "bucket" as more of a versatile rope bag. The straps are superflous to me and just add extra weight and objects to snag on stuff. Looks like it's an improvement over the A5 model, but I'll stick with your regular ol' wall bags.
Ed
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Shack
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2005 - 01:22pm PT
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Sorry, didn't mean to call it a Rope Bucket™,
I meant to call it a "FISH Feed Bag™®©"!
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John F. Kerry
Social climber
Boston, MA
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Aug 16, 2005 - 01:23pm PT
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I'm in the same boat as Up2Top. Been using 2 large Fish wallbags as rope buckets for years; great for soloing. Still have one of the o'riginal A5 buckets... and it sucks just as much now as it did then (no offense, JM). The new Fish bucket looks like it addresses the old flaws quite well. Can't wait to see one in person. The only downer for me is the plastic buckles on the adjusto straps, but those could easily be replaced by the owner with something more solid.
Regarding the complaints about idea infringement, I think it is ironic that the simple-as-dirt Fish wallbags are superior to the vaunted A5 Bucket for rope management.
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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Aug 16, 2005 - 01:28pm PT
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Hey Russ, I volunteer to be the official Gunks tester for the new Rope Bucket!
I'll email you the address to mail me one at ;)
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tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
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Aug 16, 2005 - 02:16pm PT
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What about the NEW and IMPROVED Double Whammy?
Credit cards are standing by.
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Shack
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2005 - 05:30pm PT
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Maybe as an alternative,
Russ could also offer an "Econo Feed Bag"....
something like a big "beef bag" with a larger opening,
the stiff rim, a clip in loop and that's it.
No frills, no straps, no zipper.
I think that might be nice too.
Just a thought.
I definitely like the idea of clip loops for the rope ends.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop is DEAD, long live JT
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Aug 16, 2005 - 05:39pm PT
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I'll have to check with Deucey to see if that is okay.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 16, 2005 - 05:40pm PT
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i use 2 BD bags
here is a link
http://www.bdel.com/gear/speedbag.php
they are large enough for 65m x 11mm ropes .. (with room to spare)
if fish sends me one to test -- i'd be happy to report.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Aug 16, 2005 - 10:30pm PT
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wow, vehement posts, fancy that.
Just making the point that coming up with the general concept of an expandable gussetted rope bag, which was the first, is a lot more difficult than refining an existing concept. Of course the A5 design improved over the years since 1990 as well, with plenty of people swearing by them for solos and big walls. I think Mountain Tools was the first to copy the concept, then as Fish suggests, did a lot of other companies, now cumulating with Fish himself. Even the term "rope bucket" was an odd one at first, now it is general parlance.
As many know, I have been, and still remain so, very sharing with ideas and how to do or make things, with the general advancement of tools and techniques being the ideal. Anyway, imitation is a form of flattery.
So my original post was not to say that I mind that the original concept is now in the general design realm, but I find it interesting to see the reaction to a reminder of where the "new" concept came from. Especially from Fish, who has made pretty scathing remarks in the past when his own concepts inevitably got cycled into the general public domain design realm.
Oh, then there were times like when we first started making double portaledges, and the persuasive jokes eminating from SoCal about them being only for homos and stuff confused the market for a short time, but then Fish followed suit a few years later with his own double version with a similar divider design (that we originated, again with the point being that these things aren't obvious before they are created, only after someone comes up with the idea do the solutions become obvious). But in the end the market seems to find the optimal balance, and now the double ledge is the standard.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 16, 2005 - 10:51pm PT
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Sorry J.M. (bowing at the thrown of Big wall climbers); I've got an Anker A5 and they probably changed your system but it is in NEED of improvements. A rope bucket makes such good sense I don't know why they haven't caught on more widely, But that brings me back to the overpriced worthless piece of "Anker" age There's no way I can covert anybody into using it, Currently I'm using just a metolius rope bag (1/3 ) the price and it works alot better, I'm looking forward to ordering a FISH one and seeing if he's gotten the quirks worked out.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 16, 2005 - 11:02pm PT
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I need a rope bucket that can hold TWO ropes at once for my rope solo system. I have had major problems using two separate bags for the lead an haul line.
For instance, after all the lead line payed out of one bag, the empty bag twirlled violently in the wind, wrapping itself around the haulline and causing me to be marrooned mi-pitch with NO slack! That sucked balls. Luckily it was an easy pitch and I was able to build an anchor and rap back down to fix the mess. Had it been a hard pitch...well SOL would be a good description!
One bag for two ropes please.
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