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JohnRoe
Trad climber
State College, PA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 9, 2008 - 09:16am PT
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This was mentioned in another thread. Just found this image (in a guidebook to an unfortunately now closed climbing area)
JohnR
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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This has always seemed silly to me. How many people have ever actually implimented this belay? To any benefit?
Prod.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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So is this climbing area now closed due to too many injuries?
I like Patey's definition of a running belay;
a scared second.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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I used it belaying on Hot Rocks in Josh. It may have prevented a ground fall. Makes sense when the first protection is a bolt.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Ron you talking about me?? i have never done a running belay but I have done a jump off the other side of the ledge belay. I described this in another thread. Sitting on a nice ledge, partner starts off but is not on belay. Slips on some ice under snow and falls. I watch as he falls 20 feet down the rock and on to a steep snow field. He is going for a ride and is about to go air born off the edge. I grab the rope trying to pull in what rope I can when I realize it is futile so I wait until the rope is just about all played out and jump off the other side of the ledge. I catch the fall. Neither of us suffer any major injuries and complete the climb (which was on the Hosack-McGowen on the north side of the Grand Teton)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I have implemented a 'jumping belay' off a ledge onto the ground. Probably saved my buddy from decking.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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The Running Belay was a technique used in the '30's when they climbed with hemp ropes. The belayer would let the rope run through their hands and gradually slow the falling climber to reduce impact on the rope, gear and climber.
Ken
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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It seems the falling climber in the OP pic has other problems to worry about, his rope in untied. Running belay or not, that dude's got an appointment with the ground!!!
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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On a trip to Stone Mountain, North Carolina, in the 80s, we agreed that a running belay would be desirable. The first pitch of Teflon, continuous 5.9, has two bolts in 130 feet.
Good to know what your partner can do the 40 in.
Stone Mountain is a great place with feral goats roaming the upper slabs, perfect rock, and a strong tradition for running it out. We observed a 100 foot fall on this trip. The leader never lost his feet, and shredded the palms of his hands.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Running belay might be good to shorten a slide.
Nearly worthless on a fall.
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scuffy b
climber
On the dock in the dark
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TIG,
are you thinking there's not enough time to make a difference?
Might provide a critical 2-ft margin of safety on a grounder?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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bluering - " Running belay or not, that dude's got an appointment with the ground!!! "
hahahaha LOL!
I've used a "jumping off a ledge" belay before. Have also had to jump to the other side of a ridge when a friend slipped on an alpine outing. I've been prepared to use a running belay before, but never had to.
I've also seen a "jumping" belay prevent someone from decking, head-first. Belayer bailed down the talus, the leader stopped with his head about 3-4 feet off the ground. Good stuff.
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scuffy b
climber
On the dock in the dark
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Ken,
Interesting. My understanding from reading old British books
was that running belay simply meant a point of protection with
the rope running freely through it (shortened to runner), what
we would call "some pro."
I had thought that the "dynamic belay" (what you described) was
developed by the Cragmont guys (Leonard, Brower, Bedayan, etc.)
as laid out in Belaying the Leader.
BTW, that was my primer, not Freedom of the Hills like everyone
else. I'd love to see it again.
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JohnRoe
Trad climber
State College, PA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2008 - 05:02pm PT
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I always liked the advice, "Don't try this on the second pitch".
I think I remember that in the UK we called a 'piece of pro' a "runner" or "running belay", as opposed to a "standing belay" which is/was an anchor where you tied in.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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scuffy_b, exactly what I am thinking.
Just play with some numbers. 150 milliseconds is really good reaction time. (Movement by a sprinter less than 100 milliseconds AFTER the gun is a false start). If you are moving at 100 milliseconds, you probably pulled the leader off!
Ben Johnson ran the first 10 meters in 1.84 seconds. So in one second he moves less than 5 meters - from a crouched started to body leaning way forward, both fists pumping, in track shoes from blocks. (His second 10 meters is run in one second, so his first second is less than half the 10 meter first almost 2 seconds.)
If you could move 2 meters in 850 milliseconds from a belay start, no fists pumping, in some sort of posture that you could continue to hold onto the rope against whatever friction might exist, that would be world class. In that time the leader has fallen 5 meters. (Don't even think about 2 second fall, 15 meters and maybe you get another 3 or 4 meters.)
But you are running away from the cliff. Say the first piece is only 3 meters up - It could be much more. Then the best case 2 meters of running has only shortened the rope by 0.6 meters (The hypotenuse of a 2x3 right triangle minus 3 meters. So yeah - 1.8 feet.
So in short, it might work if you were essentially falling/running downhill and the leader's acceleration was reduced by skin friction.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Read "Belaying the Leader" for lots on belaying techniques, including the running belay as known to the Sierra Club in the 1940s and 1950s.
Running belay can be used in several contexts. One is for intermediate anchors, placed while leading a pitch - these are sometimes called running belays, mostly I think by the English.
The second, as Ken mentioned, is where a belayer using a hip belay deliberately allows some of the rope to slide, thus absorbing energy and so reducing the impact of the fall on the climber and system, as friction through gloves and around the belay absorbs it. This is as described in Belaying the Leader.
A third, at least for slab climbing, may be for an unanchored belayer to run, so as to reduce the distance the slider slides.
And a last is that illustrated in Tairraz' and Rebuffat's movie "Entre Terre et Ciel", where a climber falls off one side of a knife edge, and the partner jumps off the other side, to provide a counterbalance. Or should that be a 'falling' rather than a 'running' belay?
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nutjob
Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
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Years ago when I read climbing magazines, I recall a story about Wolfgang Gullich taking a big fall and bouncing lightly off the ground or a few feet from it, saved by his partner running away from the cliff. The punchline was something like belayer saying "you get it next time" and the guy heads back up for more.
Also note that as a belayer, you can often (but not always) sense a few moments before the leader pitches and get a head start on the run.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Getting a head start is a good idea.
Since you then KNOW he is going to fall.
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rich sims
Trad climber
co
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I watched a guy deck from above the roof on Obscured by Clouds. A few feet would have saved his ankles.
The first leader could not do the crux so lowered and back cleaned the opposing pro below the roof.
The second guy pitched as I was contemplating how to clip the only bolt between both our routes.
He grabbed for me as he screamed by. Sorry but not being clipped and grounder material for sure I leaned the other way. His early style screamer (bar Tacks) popped three tacks as he hit the deck. Yep just a few feet would have changed the day for him.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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This running belay that Ken talks about letting the rope run out and slowly put the brakes on......I experienced it while climbing with some Russians visiting here in 1988 or 89. I took them up to Tuolumne for their first time and I pick out a route on Daff Dome (El Condor)and as I'm getting ready to lead off I look at my belay and notice he has no belay DEVICE, so I try to ask what the phuck is up, and my great climber Russian friend tries to explain "this is how we do it in Russka", and I get the details of a Russian Running Belay. I didn't have the heart to tell em they were freaking crazy and I was bailing on the lead, so off I lead on a LONG runout, knowing damn well I COULD NOT FALL. I was not going to test their theory, but off I go with solo in mind. These guys were DEAD set on their belay techniques. I climbed a WEEK with these guys and FINALLY got up the balls to talk them into our belay technique. They thought the ATC was a sketching looking proposition until one of them took a fall and I caught him on it. From then on that was all they used! Some of their stuff scared the shitz outa me, but it worked for them! Also got introduced to those cool Russian aid devices they used on their legs, I also thought those were crazy....until I tried them, they worked killer for long aid pitches. First time I used titanium gear too, they had TONS of it, everything from beaners to pins to cams. Our wall rack weight in at less than a few pounds!!!
Peace
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