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Richard Connors
Advanced climber
United Kingdom
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 29, 2002 - 06:59pm PT
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On May 21st I was descending with my friend Ross from Spaceshot on the Leaning Wall. During the last abseil Ross fell to his death.
Ross and I are from the UK and were on a trip visiting various crags in the US.
There is a lot of stuff spinning around in my head as I write this, but my main thought is to let people know what (it seems) was the cause of this accident. The main factor in this has surprised a good number of the climbers I have talked to.
I know there has been some discussion of this on the web already. Hopefully by telling the whole story - however irrelevant some of it might be - all of the various questions might be answered. I will try to reply to any questions where I can tell you something vaguely useful.
= The long story [skip ahead for the facts] =
On Monday we climbed the first four pitches and returned to the ground, leaving ropes in place to jug the next day. All the anchors we used were fixed, except maybe for the one at the top of the first pitch.
Pitch 1 is slightly grotty 5.6 climbing. Pitch 2 is a pretty nice 5.7 flake and ends at the left end of a large sandy ledge. We fixed a 60m rope ("the blue" 60mx10.5mm) to this anchor, having got beta saying this would just reach the ground. Pitch 3 is a mixed bag of sandy 5.5 and ends at the base of a huge smooth clean red wall, the stuff we came to do. We fixed "the green" (55mx10.5mm) to this anchor and chucked it back down to the sandy ledge (top of pitch 2). Pitch 4 is where it gets fun. I lead the pitch (C2 aid) and Ross followed, cleaning the gear. We fixed our 60m lead rope ("the yellow" 60mx10.5mm) to this anchor and abseiled down. Then down the green to the sandy ledge. Then down the blue (carefully checking it reached) back to the ground. It didn't quite reach the dirt, but left us with maybe 20ft of trivial down-shuffling to get back to our bags. We left the 3 ropes in place and headed off for a beer.
Tuesday morning we jugged the ropes. Amongst all the other crap you take aid climbing, we had a 9mm rope. We planned to lead on the yellow (the top fixed rope) and take the 9mm to deal with the double-rope abseils on the descent. We would chuck the green down to the big sandy ledge as we went past it, and then could retrieve the green and the blue by jugging just the blue on Wednesday and abseiling down.
I set off first, Ross followed. I got to the top of pitch 4 as Ross arrived at the top of pitch 3. Ross had got some two-way radios earlier on the trip and we chatted on the radio: the weather forecast had been slowly deteriorating for the last 3 days, today was 50% chance of afternoon rain, there were a lot of gloomy clouds brewing above us, the sandstone is all bad in the wet, we were not super fast aid climbers...there were a lot of reasons for continuing, mostly that I didn't want to have to lead that C2 pitch again!! A brief spot of rain actually hit us and we decided to bail.
I pulled up the 9mm rope, tied it to the yellow, stripped the anchor and descended to the top of pitch 3. Meantime Ross had been untying the green from this anchor and getting ready to set up a double-rope abseil. I got down to him, chucked him the end of the yellow to tie to the green and started pulling the ropes down from above.
Ross headed off down to the big sandy ledge as I coiled the 9mm and put it on my back. He radioed me to say "rope free" and I headed down. I arrived on the big sandy ledge about 10-15ft away from the anchor - Ross was off to my left, already clipped into the anchor and sorting out the blue rope, ready to set up the last abseil. I chucked the loose end of the yellow to Ross and started pulling the ropes from above. I was unclipped at this point - being a very bad boy, even though it was a huge ledge. This was actually the only thing that struck me as unsafe about our whole day. As the knot came down, I stopped and untied it to free the yellow, which was now all tangled up in plants and rocks on the ledge. Ross fed it over the edge as I untangled it from everything on the ledge. I started pulling the green down as Ross sorted himself out over at the anchor. I was coiling the green rope as Ross called over to say "see you at the bottom in a few minutes", he saw me coiling the green and offered to carry it, since I had the 9mm already on my back, but he already had our daysack on so I said I was fine taking it down. I turned to just finish up coiling the green and at that moment he fell.
I rushed over and there was nothing there - our ropes had gone, Ross had gone, the anchor was fine, untouched. Everything floated for a moment, slipped sideways and turned unreal - then I started shouting...I knew I had to get down in case by some impossible chance there was something I could do to help him. I was yelling down to the road and got someone’s attention, they flagged down one of the shuttle buses and shouted that help was coming. I had the 55m green and the 50mx9mm ropes with me. I couldn't get to the ground in one go but I knew there was another anchor (top of the Alpine Start for those that know it) that I would be able to reach. I set up the double rope abseil and set off down. The ropes tangled around everything - it was a complete shambles. I saw the rangers and the ambulance arrive; the rangers were racing up the hill to Ross. I set up the second abseil, it was all taking so long...as I reached the ground one of the rangers came over to tell me what I already knew.
%%= Some stuff that I do know =%%
Ross was found with the two ropes correctly through his belay device. The ropes extended about 10feet "above" him (the other 190feet being "below" his belay device) and the ends were not tied together.
Throughout this trip we had always been tying ropes together using a fig-eight knot (more below).
The only other abseil Ross set up that same day (from top of pitch 3 down to the big ledge) he had used the fig-eight knot with no back up knot on the tails. The knot was neat, I don’t remember exactly how long the tails were but they didn't cause me a second glance.
I could not see exactly what Ross was setting up on that last abseil - he was 10ft or so to my left and was sitting (while clipped in) so that he obscured my view of the anchor.
The fig-eight I refer to is tied as follows: The two ends you want to join are held parallel with the ends "pointing" in the same direction. You grab both ropes together and then tie a regular single fig-eight knot in both ropes at once.
What we did NOT use: The only other way that might be confused is when you have the ends pointing in opposite directions. Tie a single fig-eight in one rope then follow this through with the other rope - we did NOT do this.
%%= The important bit =%%
Some guys that were helping me out played around in their yard with this fig-eight method, tying it and trying to pull the knot apart. They found some worrying things.
-The way the ropes pull on this knot on a double-rope abseil deforms the knot badly.
-If the knot is not perfectly "dressed", in particular if there is a single slack loop anywhere on the fig-eight, they could pull the knot through even with 6 INCHES of tails, just pulling the ropes apart as happens naturally on an abseil. 6 inches of tails is NOT ENOUGH. If you use this knot, tie a back up knot and leave LONG tails. It scares me to think that I could have innocently/ignorantly made this same catastrophic mistake.
%%= My thoughts (not facts) =%%
The only plausible explanation of this accident I have come up with is that the knot slipped off the ends. I won't go through all the alternate scenarios and my objections to them here. I hope it doesn't sound contradictory to say that Ross was a safe climber. I never saw him rig a belay that I thought was unsafe, never saw him do anything that made me think "does he realise that's pretty dodgy".
We were not in a big rush getting down. We were moving quickly and efficiently but with no sense of panic or anything like that.
Ross knew that the last abseil was a long one and we would be a bit tight on rope. I can imagine that would make him want to keep the knot pretty near the ends, but I do not believe he would only leave something ridiculous like one inch of tails. I think he must have tied the knot with something like 6inches of tails, thinking this was plenty (go tie the knot - it looks good with this much rope sticking out of it) and maybe he didn't make it all neat and snug. I think when he set off he was happy with his set-up, not thinking at all that the tails were dangerously short.
The first 30feet of this abseil are a little slabby - and with two 60m ropes you do have to feed armfuls through your belay device at the top - the first few feet of such an abseil are always a bit jerky. I guess he fed through a couple of armfuls of rope and hence bounced the knot just a couple of times, which caused it to fail.
While I will never know for sure what happened, I do know what any of you can prove to yourselves - that you can get this knot to fail even with 6 inches of tails. I did not know that the necessary margin for safety was so wide for this knot, I am sure Ross did not realise this either.
The ropes involved (the blue and yellow) have been sent to one of the testing guys at Black Diamond who is going to run some relevant tests involving this fig-eight knot. I will post anything they find that might be of interest.
%%= Last words =%%
Thoughts of Ross are vividly etched in the minds of almost everyone he met. We miss him terribly.
The only other thing I want to say here is that the Rangers at Zion were incredible; the way they dealt with the incident, the diligence of their investigation and the compassion that they showed me...I have only praise for everything they did. I was overwhelmed by the generosity of so many other people in Springdale - it's a small town of wonderful people. Despite everything, I have some very fond memories of Zion and the people I met.
It is a beautiful place - you should go there and climb those amazing walls.
rc
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garrick
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2002 - 10:58pm PT
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Thank you for the information and the heads up. I was coincidentally on spaceshot the day after the accident, so my thoughts were on you often. I'm very sorry for your loss.
God bless,
garrick
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Charlie
Novice climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2002 - 12:25am PT
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Thanks for posting this depsite your grief. I read about it elsewhere but went through it again here. Thoughts and prayers are with you and your climbing companion.
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2002 - 11:36am PT
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I've always used this knot, but with at least two feet of tail and pulling the knot tight at the 180 degree angle before use. It has the huge benefit of offering a flat edge on one side, making it far less likely to get caught when you're pulling it.
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Charlie
Novice climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2002 - 11:53am PT
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I need a clarification now. The knot Richard puts into question in his post about the accident is the figure eight knot joining two ropes for abseil (rappel). In his post he is not questioning the overhand knot (which, I think, is also called the "European Death Knot"). I was also taught to use - and have used - this overhand knot (not the figure eight) to join to ropes together for rappel.
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2002 - 11:55am PT
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Most any knot used for climbing becomes a "death knot" if not properly tied. As pointed out above, the flat overhand and flat figure eight work well for joining two ropes together for rappelling as they roll over edges, etc. rather than catching. It is imperitive that the knot be well dressed with 30cm of tail. If you are making multiple rappells then check (retighten) the knot each time. While neither knot can be called high strength (ie. not to be used for lowering, hauling, etc.) they are more than adequate for rappelling
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BR
Novice climber
The LBC
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First of all, my condolences to anyone involved in the accident, including most of all the climber's friends and family. And I would like to thank the poster for sharing his knowledge with us.
There was a lengthy recent discussion on rec.climbing about the subject of rappelling knots -- including some links to tests that were conducted on the various knots commonly used for rappeling.
The issue appears to be that either the figure 8 or the overhand (commonly referred to as the "European Death Knot") will "invert" under load -- if the tails are not long enough, the knot will literally roll off the ends of the rope, causing the knot to fail.
Here's the thing, though -- both knots can invert, but the figure 8 uses a lot more rope when it does, so it requires comparatively longer tails.
I'll post a link to the rec.climbing thread later, when I get a chance to find it, but the one thing I remember is this: an _overhand_ knot, once it has inverted twice, shouldn't invert a third time -- the amount of force it takes to force the third inversion is close to the breaking point of the rope.
Did any of that make sense? the people on rec.climbing probably said it better than I did. What I took away from the discussion is that, popular misconceptions aside, even a poorly dressed overhand knot with 18-24 inch tails (tails pointing in the same direction) is extremely unlikely to fail under normal circumstances -- a figure 8 may be more dangerous, particularly if poorly dressed.
br
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radical
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2002 - 01:28am PT
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BR, that is incredible information. I had never heard this anywhere. thanks!!!
I have been very lazy with the length of tails when I tie ropes together.
PS. Climbing RAG and Rock and Ice, could you please drop dead..
Instead of a bunch of crap about V. %@#$@##@@*& whatever and 5.14 %%&$^&%$%#%, maybe you could have printed something about this kind stuff.
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2002 - 03:02am PT
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Ed
A triple fishermans for tying two ropes together for rappelling? Do you carry a knife with you to cut the knot free? A triple fishermans is great for permanently or semi-permanently joining two ends together such as on hexes or nuts slung with cord. Is the triple fishermans any safer if not properly tied? I stand by my earlier comment: the overhand or figure eight is more than adequate for joining two ropes together for rappelling. Some interesting testing can be seen at
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
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Matt
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2002 - 01:01pm PT
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Gymrat-
Try actually climbing some rocks & rapping some routes outside, then come back in a year or so to tell us all about that brilliant locker idea & how it worked for you...
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Jay
Novice climber
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Hey Ed,
Respectfully, those tests mean nothing to me. A total of 17 tests in a lab don't convince me that the overhand nor the standard fig 8 are safe. Statistics don't lie, people die using these knots. In the case of this tragic incident the knot failed. I don't need to see any more tests.
I know it's a matter of personal preference for each of us, use these knots if you like. I won't.
Thank you Richard for your account. It has reminded us once agian to be more careful.
Climb safe
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Matt
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2002 - 02:29pm PT
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A brief stroll through any issue of the AAC's "acidents in NA mountaineering" will aptly demonstrate that many accidents/ injuries/ fatalities occur to the experienced climber whose comfort in a familiar situation turns into a certain complacency, & then various standard back-up or safety systems are ignored or omitted (the double-check by your partner being a good example).
How many times have you checked you partners knot & found it to be bad? Nevertheless, better keep on checkin it.
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FED
Intermediate climber
Vancouver Canada
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2002 - 03:43pm PT
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Thank you for your time to recall this unfortunate event.
Obviously this is a serious matter, which cannot be taken lightly, reading all the comments has made me go back to the basics about checking & rechecking the systems which we put our lives in(on?).
There are many knots out there for many different purposes, which is good when you have different situations.
For years many climbers have been rappeling double ropes,
I have always tied a double fishermans with back up knots on both ends of the double fishermans, without discussing lab tests what is the safest way to set up the double rope rappel? Im sure many of us would benefit from the experiences of the older, experienced, & wiser? climbers.
Please tell! We should all learn something from this terrible tragedy.
FED
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2002 - 04:41am PT
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Jason,
You're right; people die using these knots. People also die using improperly tied knots for tying into their harness. I will continue using an overhand for joining two rap lines that is well dressed and has 30cm. of tails as I have for the past 10 yrs. Check, check and double check
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2002 - 05:10am PT
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"There have been joys too great to be described in words, and there have been griefs upon which I have not dared to dwell; and with these in mind I say,
Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a
lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end."
Whymper.
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Jay
Novice climber
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Yes, I couldn't agree with you more. Checking your own and your partner's knots is the MOST important thing we can do to prevent tragedy. However, do you check your know EVERY time you lead or rap a pitch? It should be, but I doubt it's 100% of the time. I know that I've gone several pitches up and down without checking the knots, my (serious) bad, but I catch myself doing this from time to time. And I know my friends are guilty of the same behavior. It's like this; you tie the ropes together, check the knot, rap a few pitches and you're down. Did you check the knot at every rap station? Maybe. There will be times when you are preoccupied with other thoughts and you simply don’t check, it happens.
Do you tie in with a bowline or a fig 8? Most folks use the fig 8. Why? Because it’s the standard and that’s what they were taught to do. But the standard use to be the bowline. That changed because the bowline has the tendency to loosen up over time and people slowly switched to the 8. When ignored the bowline is unsafe, when checked you could argue that it’s better than the 8. I see this as being similar to using the EDK. When checked the EDK is safe. It’s like a deviant child though, take your eyes off of it and there’s no telling what trouble you wind up in. Just ask Richard.
I doubt Richard will likely forget to check his knots; he saw first hand what happens when apparently he and Russ forgot. Most of us however are climbing without that experience, and sometimes forget to check. Kick yourself when you do and remember Russ.
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Marcus V
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2002 - 02:17am PT
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Tying ropes together using 2 fig 8's is, in my opinion, the only reasonable method, of connecting ropes for rappels. 8's have become the climbers standard for a reason. They are reliable and easy to inspect. Yes, it's a bulky but with a little care you can avoid most snaggs. Counting on an overhand to cease rolling over after two rolls sounds ranther frivolous. Just because others have gotten away with the overhand, is'nt reasonable grounds for testing my luck w/ how much extra tail I have alloted for knot rollover.
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Richard Connors
Intermediate climber
UK
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2002 - 04:06am PT
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This is Richard again - as at the beginning of this thread. First of all, thanks to all those who posted kind words - it really is appreciated.
I am glad that my post created a few replies - my only thought was to get other people to think about this issue, since I do not have a clear solution and I never have been a ropework guru of any sort. I think it goes like this:
Using a Fig-eight (like we did) or an overhand (EDK) does not snag as easily when retreiving you ropes - this is not too subjective a claim: lots of people will attest to this, it makes sense when you watch the knot as you pull your ropes AND it has been shown (albeit in a lab) in some of the many "rope testing" articles on the web. Rope snagging is not just an inconvenience. Accidents do occur from people trying to retrieve stuck ropes (talk to guys who do canyoning aswell!). The double/triple fishermans is a strong knot and doesn't have the "rolling" issue of the fig-eight/EDK but it is more likely to get stuck.
I dont know how definitive we can be in talking about knots failing when improperly tied. In this case, I don't know if the knot was tied neatly, or if it was pre-tensioned, or how long the tails were. I *do* know that the fig-eight is a very easy knot to tie and it seems unlikely that Ross tied it completely wrong. I can believe the tails were too short, and maybe it wasn't all super-neat but I did not see this. The worrying thing in my mind is that I reckon Ross thought he had tied a good knot, he always checked his own setup, he liked it enough to set off, and then he died.
So what's my point...a couple of things: The guy who said you should check things all the time - damn right. No one is going to argue with that. We usually did, except in this case I was standing 10ft away and we were each getting on with stuff. Sure Ross could have called me over or whatever and maybe I would have seen a crappy knot and given him a slap, or MAYBE I would have seen a neat knot with only 6inches of tails and thought it looked fine...because I didn't know about the rolling issue.
So I got thinking about how I started using this fig-eight method and liked it, but I never actually sat in my back garden thinking "I wonder how close you can tie this to the ends" or "what are the failure modes of this knot". I just got on and used it. How many people are like this - just starting to use a new nifty way of doing things, without really exploring all it's weaknesses? Now I have taken that time and tied this knot and pulled it apart a number of times in different ways and I have learnt something. I guess some of the point of posting is to say just that - it's not just me that "learns" new techniques in this way and gets on using them without really thinking through all the limitations, without testing (in however shoddy a fashion) what might happen in the margins. I am not telling anyone how to go about their climbing, just saying be aware of these things that you have not fully tested and explored. Don't just assume it'll all be fine.
None of us climbs perfectly, you tie these knots a zillion times in your life, you set up a zillion belays (are they all perfectly equalised, multidirectional and with redundancy?). We all have had to wing-it in various situations when things were getting hairy....this wasn't one of them. Please don't screw up the easy stuff - as much as you can, know the necessary margin of safety for whatever method you prefer. There are guys have been using the EDK for years and will continue to do so safely, and no doubt there will be guys die using this knot sometime in the years to come.
Enough already. Like I said I am not the guy to tell you which knot to use, but DO know your systems and that means knowing how and where they might break.
Richard.
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2002 - 04:07am PT
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Brett,
Many climbers choose to join the ends of two rappel ropes together using the figure eight or overhand tied in the manner described by Richard. While these two knots may not be as strong or stable as alternatives such as the retraced figure eight or double fishermans, they have the advantage of rolling over features when the ropes are pulled rather than potentially snagging as may happen with a higher profile knot. Interestingly enough, the overhand knot tied in this manner (sometimes refered to as a "flat overhand") is cited by the UIAA as the preferred method for joining ropes together for rappelling. The key to using the knot safely (though many will argue that these two words do not belong together) is that it must be neatly tied, well tensioned and have extra long tails- minimum of 12 inches. You may be interested in looking at some testing done using the flat overhand and flat figure eight at
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
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BR
Novice climber
The LBC
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Unnamed poster ... whoever you are, did you even read what came before in this thread? Have you done any independent legwork (or researched studies done by others) to confirm what you're saying? Your knee-jerk "information" is inaccurate and unhelpful.
I will concede to you that, in a sense, the fisherman's is a fool-proof knot -- it will tighten, not come undone, under tension. That's the pro. The con is that it has a much larger profile and is more prone to catching. You have heavily discounted the risks of stuck ropes. Recognize that you are making a personal choice -- there is no universal right answer.
You are inaccurate when you say that all of the tails in the world will not help if someone is rapping on an EDK. You are also inaccurate when you suggest that the EDK fails due to rope slippage. As a result, you are inaccurate when you say that tails give a false sense of security. And I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that they are a hazard in and of themselves.
Numerous people have posted links to discussions and test results indicating that the EDK (whether overhand or figure 8) unties by inverting (or capsizing). Even the original poster confirmed this with regard to the figure 8 EDK. When this occurs, several things happen: first, the knot flips over, resulting in a near-mirror image of itself -- as such, several inches of rope are lost if you're using an overhand, several more if you're using a figure 8. Second, the new knot usually cinches slightly tighter than the initial knot -- in other words, less susceptible to a second occurrence.
For the nth time in this thread, I will refer you to:
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
A number of tests were done on various types of tope, using various knots and various degrees of cleanliness and pretensioning.
If you want to continue to use and advocate for the fisherman's knot, that's fine. But a lot of climbers with more experience than you rap with the EDK for good reasons, and a lot of them have probably given it more thought than you appear to have.
br
Reading Richard's description of the knot that they so routinely used also gave me the willies. Loading that knot on a double-rope rappel actually pulls the knot apart. You want the forces on you ropes to tighten your knots, not destroy them! That is why the follow-through figure 8 and grapevine/fisherman's are so popular (and safe) for tying two ropes together.
And as for tails, all of the tails in the world won't help you if your knot fails outright. Tails without a backup knot works on the assumption that the knot may slowly untie itself by slippage (which is *possible* for a knot like a follow-through figure 8). Without a back up knot, if this assumption fails, so will you. Tails are a false sense of security. You might even call them a hazard in and of themselves.
As for ropes getting snagged, that is certainly a valid concern. Accidents can and do happen for this reason. However, consider that a snagged rope poses the risk of an accident, whereas a failed knot is the root cause of an accident. Keep your options open.
Richard, I'm sorry for your loss. Bad thing happen to good people. It's sad but true. Thank you for turning this tragedy into a learning opportunity for all of us.
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