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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 13, 2007 - 06:26pm PT
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Why Al Gore sucked worse than Bush, and the reason I voted for Bush once.
On another thread, it came up that I had voted the first time for George Bush.
Fool me once, shame on me…....no question - there was no “fool me twice” however.
This is to share the reason why Bush got that vote, which was more a slam on Al Gore than an affirmation of Geo Bush. To start with, at that time, I repeatly heard from many of my countrymen that they would not vote for Bush as it was a vote for “Big Oil”. Having invested in "Big Oil", and filled my car up frequently with their fine products, I didn't feel that in and of itself was a slam.
The reality was that both candidates’ were “Big Oil”. But upon examining their parents, history and backgrounds, there was clearly one candidate with less blood in the oil.
Years ago, I had read the Armand Hammer autobiography. In it, this fascinating individual makes the stunning claim that his success as chairman at Occidental Petroleum, and the rapid rise of that company, was directly attributable to him “owning” Al Gore Sr.”. That’s pretty much the way Hammer put it. That King Idris of Libya granted Occidental the massive land grant drilling rights that brought Occidental scalability of size which made it a global player and one of the majors, due to lobbying from Gore Sr (and plenty of other Hammer machinations as well). Gore paid Hammer back in this manner for the contributions and gifts Hammer had showered on Gore Senior – he de facto owned Al Gore Senior, who was then a prominent US Senator from Tennessee.
http://www.hermes-press.com/oilupdate.htm
I felt Gore Jr was a capable person, and had nothing against the guy.
It was Edward Jay Epstein’s book “Dossier: The Secret History of Armand Hammer” which changed my mind about both Gore and Ronald Reagan.
In it, after spending time with Hammer, using FBI files received via the freedom of information act, and old Soviet files, Epstein lays out well researched and documented proof that Armand Hammer was, at a minimum, a working agent for the Soviet Union. An agent who even supposedly helped fund Al Gore Jr’s education, expecting payback for all his kindnesses. It is a full sized work crammed full of names, dates, acts and info which support this shocking fact and various crimes of high treason.
This is not a work of fiction. It is not a Clive Cussler novel which is made up in the authors mind. Epstien details how Reagan, after accessing the FBI info, refused to meet, hear and accept money from Hammer. The way Hammer eventually weasels his way in to close to the Reagan inner circle after the initial rebuffing – I believe it was by establishing and funding a charity of something Nancy Reagan was interested in. I apologize if some of the facts are off; it’s been years since I’ve read these books. In either case, Ronald Reagan, despite the fact that Hammer did get close enough to have his pic taken with Ron and Nancy, stuck to his principles and refused to play with Hammer..at all. No money accepted. It changed my opinion of that man radically.
You are now thinking….yeah, but that doesn’t say anything about Al Gore Jr.
Perhaps. Al Gore released his financial statements, as do all candidates running for President. Gores largest block of wealth?
Occidental Petroleum Stock.
That and the existance of claims of corruption in Tennesee. I just couldn’t vote for the dude – period. More damning facts compiled, click the link to read it, and unlike many articals we see, I do not feel these were done for anothers political gain (although who can really say):
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17675
It was truly and election wherein the American people got the shaft and our country is still paying the price.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Feb 13, 2007 - 06:29pm PT
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Wow...you seem to have found such indepth truth!
Or was it because George cheated?
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 13, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
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I hope Gore runs in 2008.
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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Feb 13, 2007 - 06:44pm PT
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Couchmaster--Very interesting. I can understand your dilemma now, and I thank you for sharing that.
My take on being a politician is this: Sometimes you're screwing the American people, and sometimes it's an intern. Which one is worse? Nixon broke a herd of laws; he also gave us China. Rumors about Gore; miles of footage on Bush.
I look at the majority of the people who supported Gore and their reasons for it...they seemed significantly more concerned with the world as a whole, not just their own bank accounts.
Thanks again for this post. Brain cells reviving...
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Feb 13, 2007 - 07:31pm PT
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and yet Reagan's fervent anti-communists feelings also led him to blatantly break the law...
anyone who gets within spitting distance of that office has got to be slimy, a stupid puppet, or maybe both.
I used to think I'd prefer stupid to evil, but after 6 years of total incompetence, I no longer feel that way.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 13, 2007 - 07:37pm PT
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Swiftboat season, comin' round again. Anybody can play.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 13, 2007 - 08:22pm PT
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Personally, I think Armand single-handedly kept the peace between us and the Soviet Union for decades. Reagan's problem was that Armand had played that role for so long and Reagan's team no longer wanted to play nice, but rather wanted to take a hard line against the Soviets and Armand stood in the way of that. He was declared personna non grata and widely smeared. As for his robber baron status - he grew up in a wildcatting days in the wake of the real robber barons and I don't think he ever made any apologies for his renegade business ways. Did he help the Soviets? Again and again, but I think the Soviet Union, internally and externally would have been a much more dangerous place than it already was without him.
I haven't read Epsteins treatise on the man but do recall his Warren Commission work and some of his 9/11 Commission comments. He's made a career out of studying the shortcomings of other's investigations and suggesting conspiracy without really ever blatantly coming out and accusing folks of it directly. Nothing especially wrong with that, but I think in Armand's case, Armand's life was just such fertile ground Epstein couldn't resist and Armand had no shortage of Regeanesque republicans who destested what they perceived as a disloyal republican who played both sides of the fence - which he did - I just think it's also possible to interpret Armand's life in the context of the era and culture he came up in and just as easily come away being thankful he occasionally kept some very itchy fingers off the big trigger...
In general he was always a case of taking the good with the bad and deciding which way you want to look at the glass. Actually, in a climbing context I think of Becky when I think of Armand...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Feb 13, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
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I think Bush should declare Marshal Law and put on hold any future elections. Round up the subversives and put them in camps.
JDF
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Feb 13, 2007 - 08:43pm PT
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You don't have to rationalize, couch, today is the first day of the rest of your life, start over and don't look back. We've all f*#ked up, before.
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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Feb 13, 2007 - 08:44pm PT
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Brain cells slowly reverting to Play-Doh...
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 13, 2007 - 08:59pm PT
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Healyje has it correct about Armand.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Feb 14, 2007 - 08:33am PT
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The centerpoint of Gore's campaign was a prescription drug plan for the elderly.He promised to get that done if elected.If a guy serves 8 years as vice president and can't get a little thing like that pulled together,why would you even consider him as president?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Feb 14, 2007 - 11:38am PT
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Yeah, look at all that Cheney has done as Vice.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Feb 14, 2007 - 12:52pm PT
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Sheesh. if you want to talk about questionable financial family histories, take a look at W's grandpappy. There was a man with a unique moral flexibility when it came to who he was willing to do business with. And where do you think the Bush family fortune came from?
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 14, 2007 - 01:00pm PT
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"I have some politically incorrect stock or - perhaps better put - personally distasteful stock in my portfolio in the form of Microsoft stock. I happen to dislike Microsoft intensely and disapprove of their business practices. Their stock, however, makes money for me and thus allows me to whatever "good" things I might not otherwise have funding to accomplish. "
Really? I never made sh#@ from Microsoft. Perhaps I invested too late?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 14, 2007 - 01:04pm PT
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The compromises and accommodations required to gain and hold any significant political office in the U.S. (national or state) ensure that vitually all plausible candidates for president are compromised. Which is why people like Barack Obama and Eliot Spitzer have such credibility - they're exceptions to the rule. A few years in office may change that, but for now they're seen as mavericks, as threats. Simply because they're somewhat independent, and actually act as though they are.
A few presidents rise above their murky pasts, and actually govern in the interests of the country as a whole. Not many, even given that they usually have less freedom to maneuver on important issues than people give them credit for. (Bush II had rare freedom to decide in autumn 2001 - and squandered the opportunity.)
Bush and Gore started on a level playing field in that regard - both children of the Eastern establishment, both from prominent families that had long ago been bought. Gore seems somewhat more competent and trustworthy, and with his interest in the environment seems to be rising above his background. Bush has failed miserably.
State governors running for president often position themselves as "outsiders", who'll "clean up the mess in Washington". Carter. Reagan. Clinton. George II. They're as dirty as the rest, possibly dirtier. They can't have won state elections without having been thoroughly compromised. Elections are a retail business, and when/if a candidate gets to the point of being credible, they've long since been bought, one way or the other. They're almost entirely beholden to special interests.
Money talks and, with luck, also fools the voters.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Feb 14, 2007 - 01:10pm PT
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Am I supposed to understand that you voted for Bush because you thought he was not corrupt and Gore might be? That was your emphatic epiphany?
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 14, 2007 - 01:11pm PT
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I think I bought it in 2002. It wasn't very expensive at the time--something like $25/share--but it never really did anything while I had it. I dumped it 2005 or 2006 (can't remember).
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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Feb 14, 2007 - 01:23pm PT
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Locker--Stop it! You're starting to sound like Fattrad...or Crowley...or me. Like you're actually taking sides!!!!
Let's go back to singing hymns on the UC Davis thread...
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 14, 2007 - 01:34pm PT
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Lois, I can't really complain about Microsoft. I didn't lose any money and at the time, the stock market was in a funk. I've lost $$$ on other stocks, but usually have come out ahead. Things are humming along right now.
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